looking for advice on backhaul.

[molsen]

I have an access point fed by ADSL on Island number 1. I want to beam six miles to Island number two which has a permenantly anchored boat that I wish to use as the other end of the backhaul and then use as an access point. The boat can swing 260 degrees.

I plan to use a WAR board on Island one, with two CM9 cards, to pick up and route across to Island two, with identical hardware on Island two. I assume I can configure StarOS to receive on one card and act as an access point on the second card.

I would use a 19 dBi reflector grid antenna on Island one, with a 12 degree beam width and an omnidirectional antenna, 15 dBi on the boat, at Island two to receive the backhaul signal. The access point would have a 120 degree beam antenna.

Can anyone tell me if I need to look at somthing different, or do you think this will not work?

[lonnie]

You need to look at a solid base on Island 2. The omni might cover the horizontal shifts, but wave action and rolling of the boat will kill your vertical. Use a tower, or building and a 21 dB patch on both ends.

[molsen]

A land base would obviously be best. The entire island is owned by a businessman that I compete with and he is not about to let me on his land.

Wave action in the bay is low because it has the island to shield it from wind and waves.

The boat/backhaul is my only option unless someone comes up with a better idea, which so far has not happened.

Interested in your thoughts on this.

[palmczak]

This will be interesting. We have a marina that is interested in WIFI. Not the Atlantic but I am curious about how it will affect signal.

It would be intersting to install the gear and monitor jitter and signal strength.

Joe

[ninedd]

The boat/backhaul is my only option unless someone comes up with a better idea, which so far has not happened.My gut feelign is that this will be problematic with any boat motion. A higher gain Omni's only have a 3 or 5 degree beamwidth, and a boat will likely rock more than 5 degrees on even calm days. Realistically, I'm not sure how competative you'll be if you have to tell customers not to expect their internet to work on windy days though. :) However, if you're determined to give it a go, this is my top-of-the-head list to help increase your chances...

At the least, I'd say anchor the boat on multiple points to keep it as steady as possible. Also, try lower gain OMNI, maybe only a 3 or 5 dbi, which will cut your range of course, but would widen your beamwidth quite a bit. If the island is small, or if you just need to cover the marina, this might work out better. As well, there are marine specific antennas. If this is near Salt Water, you'll have to watch for corrosion big time, so seal everything well. Something like this http://www.hyperlinktech.com/web/omnidirectional_marine_antenna_hg2409um.php says it's marine rated, and has a 15 degree beamwidth. Of course, that's only plus/minus 7.5 degrees for the boat to rock so I'd go with a lower gain / larger beamwidth antenna yet.

If you have the budget, you can do some research on GPS / Gyro stabalized antennas. I'm frankly not sure how well or how much, but you could do some research on antenna systems that could maybe adjust to the rocking, shifting of the boat.

- Todd

[Mkleibrink]

Reflection from the water surface could be also a problem. You could try low gain circular polarity antennas. The only problem is that the boat rotates. Maybe you could mount a small antenna to a compass. So it maintains the right direction (Maybe just a stupid idea).

[simcor23]

Heres my idea,

If Island2 is only 6 miles from Island1. Why not put up some high gain sectors on Island1 and get your clients on island2 some high gain dishes like 29dbi or more and just point to island1 without putting an AP on the boat. I guess you would need to be as high up as possible on island1 and depends slightly on how large island 2 is. But you might be better off then trying to put an ap on the boat.

[molsen]

All good ideas. More specifically, the boat is in a harbor at Island 2 and is actually a bar and resturant. Aal the clients are on yachts, with laptops for WiFi. My business is providing access to boats in the british virgin islands. (www.bvimarinewifi.com (http://www.bvimarinewifi.com))

This site, is very popular but a real challange to set up. Any other ideas are welcome. Thanks.

[tim]

I don't understand why there is a 260 degree swing if the boat is being used as a restaurant, is it not secured to a pontoon or do your customers have to get on with a tender ?

You don't say which frequency band you plan to use 2.4 or 5.8 GHz

I don't think you will have a problem with multipath (reflections off the sea) as Island2's site is at sea level, better still would be if island 1 site had a little height.

6 miles is not very far. I would probably go for something higher gain on Island 1, to get a nice powerful signal across to Island 2.

I don't understand why the island2 AP has a 120 degree sector - if the boat is swinging 260 degrees - a simple 8dB omni should be good enough.

You should not use WAR boards for this at this stage. War boards & StarVX are specifically for point to point work & they currently lack the functionality for providing end user type client connections. I'd recommend two WRAP boards with CM9's & the latest drop of STarOs.

If you need anyone to come out and help with this install, please let me know. It sounds like a real hardship posting <g>.

[tog]

If your boat is big enough it doesn't really sway to and fro very much so loss of vertical isn't much of a concern!

I can attest to this, one of my clients is a cruise ship type boat and they go 3+ miles offshore with a high-gain 15dbi pac wireless 2.4GHz horizontal omni on their end and get a good -70 to -74 all night with full throughput and never a drop. The winds have been RIDICULOUS (25+ knots) for a month and that boat still doesn't drop its link when it's 3 miles out. Full throughput, too!

I only bring this up because you said the boat is a bar and restaurant. That indicates it might be a big sucker that's not real prone to rocking.

Because you say it spins around, I'd say an omni is your best bet.

We also have a client with an offshore platform that is slightly prone to rocking back and forth (at least a little bit more than a cruise ship) but doesn't really spin around. It has a 12 mile 5GHz link using Orthogon radios and 60 degree 5GHz sector panels on the offshore end. 3 foot dishes are used on the shore side.

[dolanp]

I have a customer who lives onboard a 27ft boat. yes it rocks and rolls and pitches but we have a simple solution. He is approx 8Km from the base. We use a bunch of 5Ghz sectors and he has a 15db Omni on a 360 degree ball joint. We installed the onmi with a heavy weight hanging from it. The weight counteracts most of the sea movement and results in a 99% constant signal which he is happy to pay for. Details can be supplied on request.

[Stratolinks]

I have a customer who lives onboard a 27ft boat. yes it rocks and rolls and pitches but we have a simple solution. He is approx 8Km from the base. We use a bunch of 5Ghz sectors and he has a 15db Omni on a 360 degree ball joint. We installed the onmi with a heavy weight hanging from it. The weight counteracts most of the sea movement and results in a 99% constant signal which he is happy to pay for. Details can be supplied on request.


I was thinking of some sort of weighted pivot mount for the application would work. Then I saw your message.

You say a 15dB omni for 5GHz? Can you give us details on this antenna (brand, suppliers, web link, etc)? It sounds like a good fit for some small population areas that are spread all around the tower site.

Thanks,
Terry

[dolanp]

My Mistake,


It is a 13db omni(the 2.4Ghz is a 15db)
I purchased them from www.wi-pipe.net (http://www.wi-pipe.net) in Ireland.


Works a treat

paul

[Mark]

Have you considered using a gimbal type mount for the antenna? it would move around, but maintain it's vertical position pretty well.

At 6 miles, a 15 or higher sector will reach an 11 db omni, which will reach laptops for at least a half and maybe a full mile.

[molsen]

the boat is 65 feet long. Customers come to it in their power boats or in rubber dinghies from sailboats. Visitors tie up on either side of the boat, depending on the size of your boat. The Resturant boat rarely swings except in heavy weather so it usually is in the same position, directed by the prevailing winds.

My mistake, I really planned to use two omnis on the boat end, or Island 2

This is my first backhaul. I am not sure what boards are best and what radio cards are best. I have found two radios, used as APs, do not work well in the WRAP-2C board so I assumed I should use the WAR board. I configured this once to get two antennas beaming in different directions with only one internet feed. Of course, the second radio can be a lower power card (but which one).

Regardless of what all of you suggest for radios and antennas, where can I get a sample script to upload to the StarOs rather than inventing the wheel again.

If anyone wants to pay their way to the Virgin Islands, be my guest onboard my workshop, a 47 foot sloop sailboat.

Thanks for everyone's advice and opinions. Please provide a bit more and I think I will have a handle on all of this.

[Bossman]

Unless you have a particular reason for NOT using a drectional at one (the Island) or possibly both ends I'd go that route since you are not seeing much movement with the 65' boat. Obviously a tracking system of some sort would be necessary on the boat.

I'd go for 2 port WAR boards. Remember, more power does not equal more distance. I can do 6 miles with my eyes closed on most days so you should have no problem. I'd go with a 10 or 12 dB sector on the island and an 8 dB or 10 dB omni (depending on profile) on the boat. They will soon be ready for AP use, so don't go with old gear expecially when things are so close and there are so many benefits.

You can backhaul with 1 radio and feed the customers with the other on both ends if you want. if necessary you can put a little hotspot device in between to have a really slick semi-auto pay for use system. No scripts for the Star-OS or Star-VX systems needed. If you can get them connected to the internet which isn't all that hard the configs can be done remotely but you'll want to learn how to do things.

Ya, that sounds like a pretty rought gig. If I had the time I'd volunteer.