WAR Concerns

[snetrom2]

I'm beginning to wonder about the viability of the current WAR hardware the more I read about the boards and the drama in arriving at an OS that offers equivalent functionality to StarOS V2. I don't think anyone can deny that the WAR CPUs and their associated performance compared to the WRAP and even the PC in many cases are a step forward, however, I believe that a big reason WAR V3 is taking so long is that the WAR boards in their current configuration are constrained by memory.

VxWorks may have allowed Valemount to shave some cost off of the platform by reducing the Flash and RAM onboard, but Linux and the associated packages are likely presenting a problem. Linksys is a perfect example (in the opposite direction) where the latest versions of their WRT54G and WRT54GS products have seen the RAM and ROM reduced to 1/2 of the previous version-check out http://www.linksysinfo.org/ for the news item announcing the move to VxWorks.

Lonnie has refused to comment on the amount of memory available on the boards previously, and in a recent thread, has described their efforts to reduce the size of the image by moving to a different DHCP server. I know Valemount has a pretty significant investment in the WAR boards, but I wonder if we are all paying now (through the WAR V3 delay, the V3 for x86 delay, and the lack of V2 bug fixes) because of the assumption that VxWorks would be used and the associated storage and memory choices. What is going to happen when more features need to be added? Are we always going to have to run up against storage limits on this platform? I for one wish the development efforts would be focused on improving the feature set rather than conserving space.

Makes me think the WRAP design may be superior in many ways where a simple swap of the CF card can quadruple your space. Additionally, while the WRAP may not be the speediest performer, it has seen constant upgrades in other areas such as the introduction of models with 128MB of RAM. I wonder if the WAR will benefit from the same innovation given that Valemount has to split their time between software and hardware development (though of course they are outsourcing most of the actual HW design and manufacturing to Gateworks). It is VERY difficult to do both well and I wonder if this platform (and the other StarOS versions unfortunately) will suffer as a result.

And so while the software issues have scared all of us away from the WAR platform, the hardware constraints may be the real issue.

[luka]

I dont think there may be a problem with ram. The ixp42x is relatively new architecture and these products are some of the first arriving. One factor for small memory sizes is that producers are reducing costs for end users/oems. Another factor is that many of those boards are designed for soho use, so for things like home routers etc which realy dont need 128 mb ram. I think that this gatewayworks platform is available with 64mb ram, @533 proabably are available version with 128mb but for higher price.

For the most uses I suppose 64mb ram is enough. Remember it is still 266 mhz board and it is still not capable of doing many cpu intensive things. They have just stepped atheros capability and what will happen when faster cards or technologies come?

Talking about those boards, their prices are still high, probably unjustified high. I have seen some producers selling bare ixp42x boards for >300$ each. Having in mind that these boards costs 20-30$ depending on configuration for 1000 (or 10000 pieces, forgot the fact), it is very expensive.

[snetrom2]

Actually, I was talking about both RAM and Flash space... mainly Flash.

Also, I understand the rationale to reduce costs by reducing memory and storage space. I don't think it was an evil plot to harm their customers- just a poor decision that is likely making the development of V3 more difficult than it would have been.

[tog]

I'm not too concerned about flash space when dealing with a Linux-based embedded OS.

Have you ever used OpenWRT? Have you ever seen squashfs in action? It's quite impressive. StarOS might fit on a 4M or 8M flash with room to spare.

I also feel that 64M is plenty of RAM for our purposes. I've rolled my own FreeBSD dist for the WRAP board and it's amazing how little RAM you can use if you're not using normal every day gigantic software like apache. You've seen that the WRAP edition of StarOS v2 takes roughly 30 - 35MB of RAM.

Look at what an xbox can do with 64MB of RAM!

[simcor23]

No doubt. Look what linux or bsd can do with an XBox. They make excellent routers.

[lonnie]

Please don't get yourself all worked up about nothing.

Sure the flash is low, BUT it is enough for a wireless router platform.

A two port WAR is very comfortable with 32 MB ram and running RIP with over 200 routes it is using a bit under 16 MB of ram. This is on our main backbone.

A 4 port WAR in the same backbone, thus 200+ routes uses the same under 16 MB RAM, and since it has 64 MB it is swimming in unused RAM.

You can keep your slow old WRAP with your 256+ MB flash. There is more to a good wireless router than the number of programs you can include on the flash.

I was not aware that I refused to comment on memory issues. Maybe it was because there is no memory issue. Of course we will continue to try and reduce memory use. That is stepwise refinement and we do it as a matter of course.

VxWorks was an awesome system to work with. In many respects I wish we could have stayed with it, but at the end of the day I am quite comfortable with my decision to move along. Consider that we had over 1.5 years of development in the VxWorks system that we walked away from. That is a lot of cash for their License but we lost WAY MORE in our own time and effort (and credibility). The credibility suffered but we'll get that back. Pound for pound we are better than any other company out there. We accomplish more with fewer resources and in the past we have shown we have a very good understanding of what is required, and I don't see our recent past as causing us to forget anything. On the contrary we have way more expertise and an even better understanding of the radio and associated code. This validates the rule that any learning is good for you.

There will always be somebody who "needs" something we do not provide. That is life and there is no way to ever win on that one. Let's all agree to wait until we max out the WAR boards before we pass any judgements about flash size and our choices. Let's also accept that v3 will be there for your chosen WRAP platform and you can always use a VIA motherboard. Kind of not the right choice for up a tower, but lots of guys are doing it. You can choose the slower WRAP over the WAR, even though the price will soon be about the same. I think it is great that you can choose like that. That way you do not have to feel like I am forcing you to move to a better platform. The old saying that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink is so true. We no longer worry if a horse will not drink, since there are lots of other horses that will and who love us for leading them to the water.

Here is a question for you: If you have ISC DHCP and ISC Bind in your system and they take at least 2 MB of flash and lots of ram when they run, would you turn your back on another couple of programs that take less than 200 KB flash and do the same things and use less ram used as an added bonus? The big problem as I see it then becomes what we can use that other 1.8 MB for?

[lonnie]

Here is a challenge for you, since you must have different contacts than we do --> provide me with ONE factory contatc that can build an IXP-420 based system for $30 and I'll order 10,000 on the spot. Since the CPU in 10K pricing is over $18.00 I suspect you are maybe guessing about the price, but I could be wrong and will gladly buy them for that price if you can find them.

I dont think there may be a problem with ram. The ixp42x is relatively new architecture and these products are some of the first arriving. One factor for small memory sizes is that producers are reducing costs for end users/oems. Another factor is that many of those boards are designed for soho use, so for things like home routers etc which realy dont need 128 mb ram. I think that this gatewayworks platform is available with 64mb ram, @533 proabably are available version with 128mb but for higher price.

For the most uses I suppose 64mb ram is enough. Remember it is still 266 mhz board and it is still not capable of doing many cpu intensive things. They have just stepped atheros capability and what will happen when faster cards or technologies come?

Talking about those boards, their prices are still high, probably unjustified high. I have seen some producers selling bare ixp42x boards for >300$ each. Having in mind that these boards costs 20-30$ depending on configuration for 1000 (or 10000 pieces, forgot the fact), it is very expensive.

[titan_wireless]

Having in mind that these boards costs 20-30$ depending on configuration for 1000 (or 10000 pieces, forgot the fact), it is very expensive.


Here is a challenge for you, since you must have different contacts than we do --> provide me with ONE factory contatc that can build an IXP-420 based system for $30 and I'll order 10,000 on the spot. Since the CPU in 10K pricing is over $18.00 I suspect you are maybe guessing about the price, but I could be wrong and will gladly buy them for that price if you can find them.

Yeah,

20 to 30 is way to low, but Im sure it could be done for $50 in qty 10,000!

[lonnie]

I would leap at the $50 board. Give me a contact and they'll be on our product list. So far nobody is even close for the raw board price.

These are not in the same league as Realtek. Now there I KNOW they can be done for $30, but who would want to?

From the high standards you guys seem to want from us I naturally assumed that you did not want us to investigate something like a Realtek. Maybe I misread you guys and all you want us the cheapest possible price.

[luka]

Sorry, it was my mistake. I searched back and found press release I had read maybe year ago. There was stated something around $20 but for cpu, not whole board. Anyways as cpu is the most expensive part there and chinese production is cheap, supposely much room is left.
Also, I am not blaming here, at least not Valemount.

Maybe two months ago there was some post on this forum refering to end-user seller starnetwifi which was offering ixp266 boards with 2mpci for $85. I dont know those boards' configs and wonder if anybody tried them. $85 is well bellow current pricing especially 300-400$ on some sites.

Realtek is not such crap but it is true that they have bad software support. As of pricing, there are other boards, atheros based with two radios priced less than $100. Its software is bad too but this is board with two radios and costs 2-3 x less than some bare boards.
Btw Lonnie, I suppose you have tried these boards. Are they worth anything and have you considered making some light variant or porting your already done VX things to them? I am reffering to this http://www.aerial.net/shop/product_info.php?currency=USD&products_id=141 product.

Anyways, WAR and similar boards with atheros are nice things but for CPEs they are still expensive, at least for my country where average employee earns 200-300$/mo. They are ok and affordable for access points but for client kit (soho) they are not especially compared to much less priced adsl/cable equipment.

[titan_wireless]

I would leap at the $50 board. Give me a contact and they'll be on our product list. So far nobody is even close for the raw board price.

These are not in the same league as Realtek. Now there I KNOW they can be done for $30, but who would want to?

From the high standards you guys seem to want from us I naturally assumed that you did not want us to investigate something like a Realtek. Maybe I misread you guys and all you want us the cheapest possible price.

Lonnie,

Im not talking about Realtek. Im talking about your boards. Your parts and your design. We will talk when I get back from my vacation.

[tog]

Actually, if I can get a board that WORKS (both software and hardware) acceptably well that is realtek-cheap I would use it often for residential clients. It would have to work better than the software I've evaluated for realtek boards so far like the Aeronaut thing that wont stay up and connected.

I already use D-Link G810 bridges for example, I have quite a few clients who are close to the access point and pay us residential rates so they work fine. If the hardware costs me $50, I don't care if the failure rate is higher than the $200 hardware, I will have plenty of stock. I avoid using $50 hardware at any location that is difficult to reach.

[Skaught]

I have been told there will be a new much faster WRAP board this year sometime from pcengines based on the Geode LX.

It is a long ways off tho.

-----

It will be x86 based, so in the big picture it will
be compatible.
But there will be some details that will change, like the LAN controller.

Best regards,

Pascal Dornier

[lonnie]

We have not tried that Atheros unit. It is likely based on their reference design which means it has a 5 to 8V power input, 2 to 4 MB flash and 16 MB ram. It is too low end and would constrain us too much, which would limit the feature set we could provide.

I tried real hard to get access to that $85 board but was unable to get any sort of volume quote, let alone a unit for evaluation. Based on what I know about the price conditions there was something not quite right about that deal. In other words it was too good be to true, therefore .... well you know the finish to that one.

For now we have to be content in the niche we have with the WAR board. It is higher performing than the WRAP and it is approaching the same price levels. As our volume builds we will be getting better pricing, but for now we cannot change the reality of the pricing we have. It is not that bad, especially for your backbone.

Sorry, it was my mistake. I searched back and found press release I had read maybe year ago. There was stated something around $20 but for cpu, not whole board. Anyways as cpu is the most expensive part there and chinese production is cheap, supposely much room is left.
Also, I am not blaming here, at least not Valemount.

Maybe two months ago there was some post on this forum refering to end-user seller starnetwifi which was offering ixp266 boards with 2mpci for $85. I dont know those boards' configs and wonder if anybody tried them. $85 is well bellow current pricing especially 300-400$ on some sites.

Realtek is not such crap but it is true that they have bad software support. As of pricing, there are other boards, atheros based with two radios priced less than $100. Its software is bad too but this is board with two radios and costs 2-3 x less than some bare boards.
Btw Lonnie, I suppose you have tried these boards. Are they worth anything and have you considered making some light variant or porting your already done VX things to them? I am reffering to this http://www.aerial.net/shop/product_info.php?currency=USD&products_id=141 product.

Anyways, WAR and similar boards with atheros are nice things but for CPEs they are still expensive, at least for my country where average employee earns 200-300$/mo. They are ok and affordable for access points but for client kit (soho) they are not especially compared to much less priced adsl/cable equipment.