New "Wireless Advanced Router" boards? [Archive] - Valemount Networks Support Forums

lonnie

05-19-2005, 01:34 AM

The board is 4"x6". They do have a different hole pattern so they are not plug and play, but they will fit rather nicely with some simple stand off changes.

They rock, BTW. It has taken since last July to get this VxWorks stuff going the way we want (huge learning curve), but it has been fun and will be worth the effort. I am already seeing people resisting the change but they can keep using the old familiar stuff.

mmc1800

05-19-2005, 02:04 AM

So are those going to have the better atheros throughput we have been hearing about?

They look great, I need a 4 radio board and I can really use the extra speed. I will be on the preorder list as well.

szern

05-19-2005, 04:57 AM

Do they run on the normal Star-OS v.2 or something different?

lonnie

05-19-2005, 08:49 AM

The code has been a complete rewrite under the VxWorks operating system. The rewrite has allowed us to make some needed architecture changes and the fact that we are operating on a known piece of hardware has allowed us to tailor the code and make some very nice optimizations.

Our speed test on the 533 MHz and Atheros radios in bridged mode to an Atheros radio for output is 10.8 MBytes/sec for Turbo A mode. This is coming from a high speed Windows box to the new box and out to a high speed Linux box as the destination, so there are four radios in the loop. This is not just an increased device count, we can actually do something useful with those devices.

The new driver has WDS so we will have true transparent bridging for all of you guys who wish to keep going that way. We will have normal static routing and also will have RIPv2 and OSP for dynamic routing.

The first version will be a bit incomplete for AP use and will be missing Hotspot, PPPoE, bandwidth control and all the fancy firewall stuff. It will be well suited for backhaul use. We have all the encryption features supported for secure backhaul use.

Would it help with 8 ESSID settings for totally independent AP use? They must all share a common set of hardware rules (channel, power, Turbo, etc) but can have their own ESSID and encryption and they appear in the list as a device for bridging, routing, etc.

phendry

05-19-2005, 09:01 AM

WOW 86Mbps on a small board that can easily be mounted and that is not adverse to v hot/v cold weather conditions. Was this speed via the built in throughput tester in StarOS? What happened to BGP or will that be in a later release? I guess this means that V3 for all other hardware isn't far of then?

durotel

05-19-2005, 11:23 AM

mmc1800

05-19-2005, 11:50 AM

*BOWS*

You rock.

I am really looking forward to replacing a few of my multiple radio backhaul installs with these.

Are you planning on adding all the other features back in over time or just leaving these new radios with the functionality they have now?

WDS is primarily only useful for me to provide APs where bandwidth usage is small enough that dedicated backhaul/AP radios are overkill so it is nice to be able to deliver the backhaul bandwidth and provide an AP with one radio, and usually these are radios I would want to have hotspot functionality but do not want to have hotspot actually running on that device. WDS is crappy under any load in my experience, but there are some situations it works well. I usually only use it to extend AP coverage on a large property that is looking for 100% roaming coverage but does not have ethernet available all across the property, like a hotel. If this radio would speak WDS with my Senao WDS/11g APs I could use one of the cards on this radio where I have to use an external different brand of radio now.

With either situation you can bridge back to a single StarOS router running hotspot to handle the aaa and the bandwidth shaping and then you don't need to have hotspot or anything like that running on the radios that are actually doing WDS (works great for me now on a couple of properties).

robok

05-19-2005, 04:16 PM

The code has been a complete rewrite under the VxWorks operating system. The rewrite has allowed us to make some needed architecture changes and the fact that we are operating on a known piece of hardware has allowed us to tailor the code and make some very nice optimizations.

Our speed test on the 533 MHz and Atheros radios in bridged mode to an Atheros radio for output is 10.8 MBytes/sec for Turbo A mode. This is coiming from a high speed Windows box to the new box and out to a high speed Linux box as the destination, so there are four radios in the loop. This is not just an increased device count, we can actually do something useful with those devices.

The new driver has WDS so we will have true transparent bridging for all of you guys who wish to keep going that way. We will have normal static routing and also will have RIPv2 and OSP for dynamic routing.

The first version will be a bit incomplete for AP use and will be missing Hotspot, PPPoE, bandwidth control and all the fancy firewall stuff. It will be well suited for backhaul use. We have all the encryption features supported for secure backhaul use.

Would it help with 8 ESSID settings for totally independent AP use? They must all share a common set of hardware rules (channel, power, Turbo, etc) but can have their own ESSID and encryption and they appear in the list as a device for bridging, routing, etc.

What are practical tests results? On what distance is what speed and what is ping latency under full througpout??? Hmm, price is a little bit high.

szern

05-19-2005, 06:21 PM

I am excited about the new platform too.

But is there anyway to get WDS into current v.2? or will it only be available in v.3?
I have 2 links which I need to have full speed (inter-building bridged) on ATX733's and using VDS does actually cut my throughput.

However, I would like to thank both Lonnie and Tony for the great job they have done so far. Without Star-OS we wouldn't have deployed as many reliable links as we have today.

Cheers!

lonnie

05-19-2005, 06:45 PM

All features will eventually make it back. We desperately need more backhaul capacity for our own WISP so we are concentrating the first efforts to give us that system first. It basically becomes a simple AP with no features, except it will move a lot of data.

After we get that one released we will then start the process of adding in the features we all have come to depend on.

Yes, this is an expensive board compared to a WRAP board, but it also kicks the butt of the WRAP in terms of performance and radio count. If you do some comparisons as to $$ per MByte/sec, then the WAR is $60 per MByte/sec and the WRAP is $87 per MByte/sec and that is without taking into account that the WAR has 4 ports compared to the 2 on the WRAP, and 2 WRAP boards is getting expensive as well.

The tests so far have been on the bench, but let's say we know what the Atheros can do in the real world and up till now we have been limited by CPU, so I do not expect any disappointing numbers when we take this thing outside to play with it.

We are now planning on a smaller version with only 2 mini PCI slots that will be cheaper and will use a 266 MHz processor. I can't give any firm numbers yet, but expect it to be in the ballpark of $400 with 2 CM9 radios. It will do almost full speed on one Atheros or about 8.7 MBytes/sec. With two cards in a repeater situation it will get about 7 MBytes/sec bridged throughput. That board is 8 weeks away.

mmc1800

05-19-2005, 07:47 PM

I was planning on using OSPF ECMP with multiple radios to add backhaul capacity, so cost wise this is actually the same cost or cheaper.

Skaught

05-20-2005, 01:18 AM

phendry

05-20-2005, 02:29 AM

We are now planning on a smaller version with only 2 mini PCI slots that will be cheaper and will use a 266 MHz processor. I can't give any firm numbers yet, but expect it to be in the ballpark of $400 with 2 CM9 radios. It will do almost full speed on one Atheros or about 8.7 MBytes/sec. With two cards in a repeater situation it will get about 7 MBytes/sec bridged throughput. That board is 8 weeks away.

56Mbps bridged sounds very cool. Any idea on the size of this board?

tony

05-20-2005, 07:43 AM

The 4-port board is 4x6 inches.

lonnie

05-20-2005, 08:23 AM

Does this mean we cannot get the shrink wraps anymore? I am just in the midst of a bunch of network upgrades and changing boards midstream, especially with the fractional featureset is a project stopping issue.

We are right out of stock on the WRAP boards. We were faced with a tough decision of restocking with the WRAP or doing this. Due to the price of these boards it is not possible for us to do both (unless someone loans us another $200K). Would you guys support a YSYL deal for advance purchase and license credits? We have another 500 due to be shipped in the first week of July.

Our decision was made easier when we saw the number of people selling WRAP boards. There are many places to get WRAP boards but none to get something better, so we opted to bring the new board into our product line - and at the moment it becomes our entire product due to its high cost.

Skaught

05-20-2005, 09:19 AM

Well I am quite disapointed at the lack or notice and this makes for a fair bit of inconvieince.

The boards look like a cool solution but I think you may have jumped the gun just a bit. Without a full software version for these they are of zero use to me for now. And Now I have to import wrpas from outside the country. I did really like the quick turnaround I had with the wraps from what was essentially a local supplier.

Also at the higher price point I can not see buying nearly as many of these. The wraps were plenty powerfull enough for most things and I will likely continue to use them for most of my AP roles.

phendry

05-20-2005, 10:12 AM

The 4-port board is 4x6 inches.

Yeah I know, Lonnie mentioned that earlier. I was refering to the 2 port board.

Would you guys support a YSYL deal for advance purchase and license credits? We have another 500 due to be shipped in the first week of July.

Depends what the deal was really.

billr

05-20-2005, 11:34 AM

Probably a stupid question answered elsewhere - but I'll ask it anyway..
What impact does this have on V3 of StarOS??

The board looks great - but might be overkill in some cases.
I suppose the answer to that would be stick to WRAP.

Cheers.

Skaught

05-20-2005, 02:20 PM

I suppose it means we will use it for a backhaul and 3 sectors all in one radio.

Assuming the CPU is fast enough for all that.

And we need to find a outdoor enclosure for it, he have been using the Mini-box wrap enclosures and really liked them.

Allthough at that price point they are much too expensive to ever use as CPEs.

bobbyc

05-20-2005, 02:24 PM

Keep in mind the price on their website is including 4 radios and pigtails.

Bob C

lonnie

05-20-2005, 03:48 PM

Skaught

05-20-2005, 03:57 PM

The size would work but the standoffs are cast in the aluminum on those things, doable but I will need to get some stuff fabricated to do it cleanly. And I will have to see if the eth port has room.

bobbyc

05-20-2005, 06:29 PM

In another thread you mentioned the I/O approach limits these boards to 6mbps throughput... so would you run into this when using this board as a backhaul repeater (two cards in one board?)
Bob C

lonnie

05-20-2005, 09:50 PM

No I said that we would not be supporting the Prism and Orinoco cards because THEY use polled I/O and limit the entire throughput to 6 mbps, no matter how many cards you have.

We are only supporting Atheros and you will see the full throughput of whatever device you are using to reach the Internet with.

phendry

05-21-2005, 04:42 AM

Will there be any issues using 4 CM9's in a single enclosure? How do the radio cards not interfere with each other?

lonnie

05-21-2005, 08:34 AM

You have to keep some channel separation between radios.

Beebe

05-21-2005, 09:35 AM

Sounds like this will be a nice new product lonnie! I'm looking forward to trying some out.

Don't you recommend against using cm9 cards as access points due to them having compatibility issues with various client radios? Also, I'm a bit worried about the lack of output power for general AP use. Is there some other radio you recommend in the new board for AP use?

lonnie

05-21-2005, 01:08 PM

The new driver should have some compatibility issue fixes and it will have some tweakability for low level driver issues. We have had a number of people telling us that the current equipment in use works just fine. None of the old 2 mbps gear works, but that would be a good thing, since they need to be replaced because they drag the whole LAN down to 2 mbps.

If you really need the power then there will always be the SR5 high power radio for AP use. Before you panic and write it off I would suggest trying the lower power with a decent sector antenna and a 21 dB patch at the client.

tim

05-21-2005, 06:44 PM

Looks like a stunning new product, the DFS & TPC support is particular important for UK use. How about compatibility with v2 systems, will a wrap be able to talk to a war ?

Tim

tony

05-21-2005, 08:40 PM

The War will work with legacy client systems, minus some of the newer features. (QoS, etc.)

phendry

06-07-2005, 08:33 AM

Is it the 2nd week in June yet??

lonnie

06-07-2005, 09:19 AM

No, I checked and this is June 7th. The second week goes all the way to June 14th.

rbolduc

06-07-2005, 01:29 PM

No, I checked and this June 7th. The second week goes all the way to June 14th.

LOL :) AH that's what that calander thing does...

Reed

lonnie

06-07-2005, 01:48 PM

An interesting phenomemon I noticed is that I could actually make my Windows calendar go backwards in time. I wish I had known about this time travel feature when we were taking all that heat about missing a delivery date.

phendry

06-07-2005, 02:46 PM

Damn! I have just set my Windows calendar to June 14th so where's my boards ;)

phendry

06-07-2005, 03:18 PM

Would it help with 8 ESSID settings for totally independent AP use? They must all share a common set of hardware rules (channel, power, Turbo, etc) but can have their own ESSID and encryption and they appear in the list as a device for bridging, routing, etc.

Will you be able to set the transmit rates independently? I.e. ESSID 1 to use a transmit rate of auto and ESSID 2 to use a rate of 24Mb? We always like to specify the transmit rate to prevent latency when the rate changes but we some times have a situation where client A's signal is too low to set the rate higher than 6Mb but client B requires the higher throughput. In this scenario we have no choice but to set the AP to auto.

tony

06-07-2005, 03:46 PM

The transmit rate cannot be set independently for each bss.

rbolduc

06-07-2005, 07:42 PM

Damn! I have just set my Windows calendar to June 14th so where's my boards ;)

I just jumped to 2007 ... WOW wait untill you see the features in Ver 6.1.45
and the new SFWAS (Super Fast Wireless Access System) Is just killer ;)

Reed

phendry

06-08-2005, 03:30 AM

I just jumped to 2007 ... WOW wait untill you see the features in Ver 6.1.45
and the new SFWAS (Super Fast Wireless Access System) Is just killer ;)

LOL

The transmit rate cannot be set independently for each bss.

Is it technically possible (i.e from a programmers point of view) to have different clients hard set to different specific rates? If so, I would like to have it added as a future feature request as it would add stability to our network.

tony

06-08-2005, 07:42 AM

Unfortunately the rate is one of those items that cannot be set for each vbss for technical resons. If at any point we find a working solution, it may be added in the future.

lonnie

06-08-2005, 11:59 AM

LOL
Is it technically possible (i.e from a programmers point of view) to have different clients hard set to different specific rates? If so, I would like to have it added as a future feature request as it would add stability to our network.

The Clients can be set to whatever you desire but the AP is the same for all and if you set it to auto, it will move around to maintain the links in the face of noise and signal loss.

phendry

06-08-2005, 12:21 PM

The Clients can be set to whatever you desire but the AP is the same for all and if you set it to auto, it will move around to maintain the links in the face of noise and signal loss.

That's the problem. Everytime it changes it introduces delay. If it technically cannot be done then never mind.

go.fast

06-13-2005, 09:47 AM

Damn! I have just set my Windows calendar to June 14th so where's my boards ;)

It's June 13th and only 1 day left!

Wondering if the 14th is the date that:
1- the supplier ships the boards to Lonnie, or
2- The date Lonnie gets the boards, or
3- The date Lonnie ships the boards to us, or
4- The date WE ALL recieve our boards :)

:)

I'm jonesing over here...

:)

George

bobbyc

06-13-2005, 12:29 PM

I've heard that before "jonesing"
What does it mean?
I'm going to go google it.
Bob C

go.fast

06-13-2005, 01:04 PM

to have a strong need, desire, or craving for something.
see also: jones (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jones&r=d) Sheeeit beeeitch after smokin' dat weed I'm jonesing for some grub!

I ggogled it and came up with this one.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jonesing

:)

George

lonnie

06-13-2005, 08:02 PM

Or it could be the date that Lonnie's calendar gets set back to June 7th.

phendry

06-14-2005, 01:44 AM

Or it could be the date that Lonnie's calendar gets set back to June 7th.

Is that a subtle way of saying they are gonna be late??

lonnie

06-14-2005, 08:35 AM

We expect the software to be ready for you guys by the end of this week with shipping next week.

We hit some last minute snags with updates and writing the flash.

lonnie

06-19-2005, 05:10 PM

A couple of snags have come up and we are not quite ready. We have worked all weekend and are very close but we want a few days testing since we had to make a few major changes. Shipping will be by the end of next week after we test some things until about Wednesday.

For the advance purchasers, I will credit your license keys account with a free StarOS license for your patience. Please email me separately and give me the account name you use.

Anybody who does not wish to wait, I will refund your money and still provide one StarOS license per WAR board you paid in advance for.

Sorry and thanks in advance.

mkolbo

06-21-2005, 08:27 PM

Any new news on the timeline for the 2 mPCI model? I would be interested in that one for campus coverage as an AP. Thanks.

lonnie

06-21-2005, 08:51 PM

We are evaluating several units now. They would not be available for at least 6 weeks and we will require a LOT of cash to get into them. In order to do the 2 port and the 4 port, which is already committed, we will need some very large advance orders.

Time for me to talk to some money men, I guess. Too bad none of you guys have a spare $5M. hehehe

Skaught

06-21-2005, 08:55 PM

phendry

06-22-2005, 03:52 AM

Time for me to talk to some money men, I guess. Too bad none of you guys have a spare $5M. heheheLet me just check my petty cash tin .... Nope sorry :(

From what I can see, the cheapest Tranzeo CPE for 5.8Ghz costs more than building a StarOS CPE using a WRAP, CM9 and intergrated antenna. I would imagine it's the same story for a 2.4Ghz CPE too.

mp3turbo

06-22-2005, 05:49 AM

> Hey if you could get a full >200mw 15dbi CPE for under $300 cdn, I would give
> you all my business. I currently am spending over $20k/mo with tranzeo and I
> would be ahppy to move to a more stable platform.

you must be ccccccrazy or something, skaught. Instead of 200mw + 15dBi use widely available 65mW + 19dBi and you have the same, even better radio performance because 19dBi antennas (or preferably 24dbi ones) are more directional meaning they will not listen to garbage in the air.

Well, what does my client cost? 50US$ for celeron400MHz computer, 60$ for radio card with pigtail, 40$ for staros license, 60$ for 24dBi antenna. Hmm, together ~210US$ for much more powerfull system than snaky routerboard. And nothing paid monthly - zero! No leasing, no payments, it's all mine. Drawback : you have to have 110V available at each customer and I'm not paying AC costs (customers are).

Also, $20k/mo for tranzeos... ouch, I'd be almost happy to go there and rebuild your network in three months if you give me 3x 20k$...

go.fast

06-22-2005, 09:25 AM

Hey if you could get a full >200mw 15dbi CPE for under $300 cdn, I would give you all my business. I currently am spending over $20k/mo with tranzeo and I would be ahppy to move to a more stable platform.
I think the Tranzeo is a cb3 with their own firmware(?)

I've been buying Teletronics EZ Bridges for 150.00 each in the weatherproof box and in pcb form only it's been 120.00 each.
Both come with poe adapter and power supply as well as piggy.
So a EZ Bridge PCB and a rootenna is well under 200.00.
I've also had no problems with the EZ Bridge and it's a 100mw card.
Comparing them side by side to a cb3, in the past, I did not see much diference as reported by Star-Os ap.

I would like a single radio Star-Os cpe board for about 170.00 and I would switch over completely.

George

go.fast

06-22-2005, 11:44 AM

In order to do the 2 port and the 4 port, which is already committed,

Does this mean that 2 port versions of WAR will be hitting the streets soon as well?
I could really use some 2 port boards after I get the 4 ports, that you are shipping this week, in operation.

Thanks
George

lonnie

06-22-2005, 11:56 AM

Hey if you could get a full >200mw 15dbi CPE for under $300 cdn, I would give you all my business. I currently am spending over $20k/mo with tranzeo and I would be ahppy to move to a more stable platform.

How about a 100 mW with 18 dB antenna? It will perform better since it will have lower noise and higher rx and tx signals will as good at the AP end.

lonnie

06-22-2005, 12:12 PM

Does this mean that 2 port versions of WAR will be hitting the streets soon as well?
I could really use some 2 port boards after I get the 4 ports, that you are shipping this week, in operation.

Thanks
George

Right now it seems we have the opportunity to do both, but we lack the cash resources. We will stay on our current path of 4 port since we have made a committment and they are awesome boards. I have wanted 4 port for main units since the beginning.

go.fast

06-22-2005, 03:11 PM

Right now it seems we have the opportunity to do both, but we lack the cash resources. We will stay on our current path of 4 port since we have made a committment and they are awesome boards.

Guess we can only spend what we can afford.
I think a lot of the popularity of the wrap is the dual card set up.
As well as the reasonable costs.
Maybe after you get going on sales of the 4 port you could do some advanced ordering of the 2 port in say 20 packs to help finance the purchase.
Just an idea.

George

lonnie

06-22-2005, 04:47 PM

Once we have several 4 port shipments completed we will be able to spare some resources and begin the 2 port product line. I expect this to become real in about 3 months, which is about what it would take to bring it into volume production anyway.

We are trying to negotiate better terms (currently cash in advance with the order) but it seems that everyone is hurting and cannot spare any of their own resources to help us.

Skaught

06-22-2005, 09:55 PM

I pay ~$200 cdn for a tranzeo CPE, 200mw radio +15 antenna, surge supressor, power supply all included. And it does not look like it was made in someone's basement. Maybe not as classy as an axcellera but I cannot even buy a wrap board for that, let alone a metal enclosure, antenna and ethernet surge supressor.

I dunno what you mean by $20k/mo for tranzeo. I just buy about a hundred a month. Also a reason why a homebrew or any sort is not practical as I lack a manufacturing space and time. I am too busy running an ISP to manufacture or assemble my own units. This is not my hobby, it is my day job.

If anyone can find me a radio with similar specs and all the same features for the same price, that looks somewhat decent let me know.

I also prefer the 15dbi as they are smaller, people are really sensitive to that and they will go as far as prisim timing allows for us with plenty of fade margin.

Not say I am huge fan of them either, they are based on the CB-3 and are not as solid as the commercial grade gear I have used in the past but at that price point, you get what you pay for.

mp3turbo

06-23-2005, 01:52 AM

> I dunno what you mean by $20k/mo for tranzeo. I just buy about a hundred a month.

I meant you are paying $20k leasing monthly for gear... Right now it's clear. Hundred pieces for 200$ each.

lonnie

06-24-2005, 07:46 PM

Shipping update: Almost ready. I debated sending the units and issuing an immediate formware update but we want this to be mostly usable and solid when you get it. I know we'll take some heat, but I prefer that to the heat from purposely shipping something I know is not suitable for use.

I am gone for the weekend. My daughter's birthday is on Sunday and she requested that we go into a "hike in only" lake that is nearby. Should be a good break. No email either.

06-27-2005, 07:26 AM

Lonnie,

As it has been mentioned, first release(s) of StarVX won't be supporting everything, and features will be added later on.

Will new StarVX releases (with added features) be free of charge?

I guess the answer is "yes", but... I'd rather have it confirmed :)

Thanks.

lonnie

06-27-2005, 09:20 AM

I can confirm that VxWorks releases will be free just like the StarOS Linux releases. We do hate to have to keep paying for a product you have purchased. Yearly maintenance means the guys have captured as much market as they can and growth has stopped, so they must milk the current users.

I feel that a license should never expire. It might not continue to have new features added and you might have to pay an upgrade fee for really new features, but never to simply use the features you had been accustomed to using.

We are treating the VxWorks as a special release since each copy will cost us a royalty to Wind River and we need to control the deployment to be able to account for them and pay that royalty.

Also, VxWorks does not function well on any old hardware. It can be made to run on almost anything but that image will then only work well on the type of hardware. This has meant it cannot be used for our main software only product, since people expect to be able to pick and choose their own hardware. This means that v3 will be general purpose which means it cannot be tuned to the hardware in the same way we can do with VxWorks. Simply put that means the VxWorks and the hardware we use will always outperform an equivalent CPU speed on the v3 release.

It is not an evil plot to get rid of v3, it is simply the way it is.

go.fast

06-27-2005, 09:39 AM

What is the cut off date for prepaying for the DUAL radio WAR board?
Thanks
George

lonnie

06-27-2005, 10:38 AM

There is no cutoff. We are nearly ready to ship from the first batch. I have a few that are not allocated, so really that is the deadline for quick reception. Once the first batch is gone you will ge allocated out of the second batch, which is supposed to be getting built fairly soon. My expectation is to have that batch in the first week of July with shipping shortly thereafter. As always, things happen and we cannot be sure of them until they arrive here.