MIMO "Pre-N" 802.16n-type technologies

[tog]

I searched and found no mention of this yet so I thought I'd bring this to everybody's attention. This looks very interesting and there is even a Belkin product that incorporates this technology. This Belkin product exists but is still probably a few weeks away from being readily available through normal retail channels. This Belkin product is actually still fully 802.11b/g compatible, it just has the additional capability when talking to other stations based on Airgo's chipset, much like Atheros "SuperG."

Basically, this technology is more spectrally efficient (108mbit out of what you would currently call one channel instead of bonding two) and more sensitive to an extreme even compared to the AR5213 because it uses multiple antennas AND multiple transmitters/receivers in and out. Same idea that Orthogon implemented in their product which is designed to make difficult/impossible links work. The multiple antennas in and out thing is certainly not a new idea, but this and Orthogon's stuff are the most impressive real-world applications I've ever seen.

I can tell you firsthand that Orthogon's implementation of the "MIMO" idea works and it's very impressive. This one link out to a buoy on the water did not work worth a damn with anything (they had tried 6 different $10k - $30k variety products) until Orthogon's product was installed.

Getting back to Airgo, Airgo Networks makes the new chipset:
http://www.airgonetworks.com/

I certainly don't presume to set the future direction for StarOS, but it's the first thing I thought of when I saw all of this. Hopefully in the future Airgo AGN100 miniPCI cards will be available to us. The MIMO idea becoming affordable like this certainly makes things interesting for those of us trying to make everything work in small neighborhood cells through obstructions without breaking the bank or requiring ridiculous height for each customer.

Tom's Hardware compared it to an Atheros "SuperG" based product:
http://www.tomsnetworking.com/Sections-article96-page2.php

Whitepaper:
http://www.airgonetworks.com/pdf/Farpoint%20Group%202003-242.1%20MIMO%20Comes%20of%20Age.pdf

[tog]

Looks like Airgo has miniPCI cards with their chipset on it.

[MerTech_Wes]

Atheros has the AR5005 Chipset which supports MIMO.... :D

[go.fast]

Atheros has the AR5005 Chipset which supports MIMO.... :D

Couple of questions I have:
So when do we expect mimo'fied star-os Lonnie ?!?
And how many antena's do we use in a mimo'fied star-os ap?
Oh yeah does it do 'a' ?
George

[MerTech_Wes]

The AR5005VA Chipset support 802.11a/b/g

[MerTech_Wes]

The AR5005VA Chipset is a single Multi Radio Smart Antenna Processor + 2x A5112 Dual band radio on chip (same radio as the existing CM-9's) in a MiniPCI format.... so just think of a CM-9 with a new Processor and 2 radio's with 2 antenna ports each for a total of up to 4 antenna's.

THe AR5005VA is NOT "pre- 802.11n" it's basically just 2 802.11a/b/g radio's with a processor that controls them [antenna's]. Therefore it still increases performance if it's only on one end of the link (because of antenna diversity/signal processing etc.) and is 100% compatible with standard 802.11a/b/g. In the future i would guess that it would just be a matter of a firmware update / new Star-OS release to update to 802.11n spec.

See: http://www.atheros.com/pt/AR5005VA.htm
http://www.atheros.com/news/AR5005VL.html

[funkywizard]

Couple of questions I have:
So when do we expect mimo'fied star-os Lonnie ?!?
And how many antena's do we use in a mimo'fied star-os ap?
Oh yeah does it do 'a' ?
George

I would think that you won't be seeing mimo in something like this for quite some time. The pre-n equipment seems to use three antennas and transmitters. For people already wondering how to afford CPE's, it seems to me that adding 2 more antennas and antenna cables to each installation would make the price (and the way the customer's roof looks) very unwieldy.

So if you can get an antenna for $60, and a cable for $20 (assuming the equipment is next to the antenna), then you go from an $80 expense for that part of the system to a $240 expense. If you get an $80 antenna and a $50 cable (assuming the equipment is not mounted next to the antennas), then you go from a $130 expense to a $390 expense. Doesn't really seem feasible.

[go.fast]

I would think that you won't be seeing mimo in something like this for quite some time. The pre-n equipment seems to use three antennas and transmitters. For people already wondering how to afford CPE's, it seems to me that adding 2 more antennas and antenna cables to each installation would make the price (and the way the customer's roof looks) very unwieldy.

So if you can get an antenna for $60, and a cable for $20 (assuming the equipment is next to the antenna), then you go from an $80 expense for that part of the system to a $240 expense. If you get an $80 antenna and a $50 cable (assuming the equipment is not mounted next to the antennas), then you go from a $130 expense to a $390 expense. Doesn't really seem feasible.

What I was thinking after reading the atheros article about their mimo technology and phased array or smart antennas is that for our main pops this would good if it could be used in conjunction with a true phassed array or smart antenna panels.
Like Vivato and Navini uses smart antenna technology, I am assuming the smart antenna products will soon be available seperatly for use with diferent manufacturers mimo technology.
Atheros being one and hopefully Star-os is looking at this and working towards a solution.
I know I would like to have the added capacity to build out with.
Even the atheros 802.11a PtMP capacity is not enough to satisfy demand for long.
George

[MerTech_Wes]

By using MIMO at just one end of the link (AP) you should be able to increase your coverage area, as well as your throughput to standard 802.11a/b/g clients. This "performance boost" would be the result of the signal processing abilities of MIMO; find the strongest signal, or "re-assemble" the signal to make it stronger.. stronger signal/better signal to noise ratio = longer range + more throughput + less errors.

In regards to concerns about the need for multiple antenna's at the CPE.. first off: why would you mount your radio inside, then run RF cable outside to the antenna? why not use a rootena or any sort of enclosure that your only connection to the inside is UTP (Cat5e?) running RF cable is expensive, degrades your link budget, takes longer to install, prone to weather failure... the list goes on and on.

You don't need to purchase 2 radio's (or more..) that's not the way 802.11n works... take a look at the link i posted.. the new AR5005 already HAS two radio's onboard.. for only a marginal increase in cost (as compaired to the CM-9).

As for the need for 2 antenna's.... http://www.hyperlinktech.com/web/hg2411dp.php
Think of a rootena with dual diversity...

My point is that we should be able to start by upgrading our existing AP's to MIMO to gain additional coverage and throughput... then upgrade your existing CPE's to MIMO (this is why you should be using WRAP boards and Star-OS at the CPE.. so it's as simple as upgrading the radio.. not the whole thing) as required... and all new CPE's should be MIMO "ready"

[go.fast]

By using MIMO at just one end of the link (AP) you should be able to increase your coverage area, as well as your throughput to standard 802.11a clients. This "performance boost" would be the result of the signal processing abilities of MIMO; find the strongest signal, or "re-assemble" the signal to make it stronger.. stronger signal/better signal to noise ratio = longer range + more throughput + less errors.

I sure would like to see a url for a smart antenna panel to be used with mimo 802.11A.
Anyone know where to get these outdoor smart antennas?
George

[MerTech_Wes]

George, the way I understand 802.11n or MIMO is that the antenna’s themselves are not the "smart" component. It's the base band processor that has all the smarts.. Simply attach "dumb" antenna's to the antenna ports (make sure that the antenna’s cover the same area) The link to the hyperlink site was just an example that would be suited to CPE's. For AP's you could have 2x 60 deg sector antenna with separated by 6 feet (spatial diversity) pointing at the same area... and if each sector was dual polarized (horiz. + vert.) you would now have 4 spatial and polarization diversity. I know it’s more more complicated than this (i.e. calculating proper spacing between sectors and making sure there are no nulls etc.) but this is an example :)

As for another link(s): http://www.maxrad.com/cgi/maxrad_products_ind.cgi?product=10326&catalog=10001

http://www.superpass.com/SP-DIV-DG14O.html

http://www.superpass.com/SP-DIV-LG1.html

Soon enough we may see a rootenna with spatial diversity….

[funkywizard]

In regards to concerns about the need for multiple antenna's at the CPE.. first off: why would you mount your radio inside, then run RF cable outside to the antenna? why not use a rootena or any sort of enclosure that your only connection to the inside is UTP (Cat5e?) running RF cable is expensive, degrades your link budget, takes longer to install, prone to weather failure... the list goes on and on.

Extreme weather is why you might mount the radio inside and the antenna outside. Here in Fairbanks Alaska it routinely gets to -40 in the winter, and occasionally gets to +90 in the summer. To have an idea of how cold -40 is, handling a metal object feels about the same as handling dry ice, and you have to scrape the ice out from the *inside* of your car windows because even with the heater on, the water vapor from your breathing often freezes to the inside of the windows. Not exactly the best of conditions for an access point, even in a rootenna.

[MerTech_Wes]

Funkywizard: sorry didn't know that's where you were... in that case then yes.. it would be too expensive to build an all-in-one outdoor solution that could handle those conditions.. and yes I know what -40C is like... not very nice at all... COAX doesn't reel out right... connectors don't fit... trucks don't start.. all those good things.

Wes

[lonnie]

The solution we have is to use agood metal case and line it with 1" of styrofoam. All of our units that were lined like that went through a -40C cold snap. We discovered one unit with none, and itr quit at -32C and one unit with the top liner missing (lined only on 5 sides) and it quit at -37C. All the fully lined units came through with no hitch.

We keep them insulated all year since even at HOT outside temps and in direct sunlight the insulation reverses its role and keeps the units cooler than outside.

[funkywizard]

and yes I know what -40C is like... not very nice at all... COAX doesn't reel out right... connectors don't fit... trucks don't start.. all those good things.

Wes

Lets add a few more for fun :)

Forget to plug car in, it starts, but boy what's that burning smell?

"Sub Arctic" rated outdoor power cord gets the same physical properties as a tree branch.

Car exhaust settles at about just above ground level, where it freezes onto the roadway, making for icy intersections.

Though the best one was, that my dorm room was at 80 above with the window open and a box fan in the window running 24/7 because of all the computers running in such a small space.

[Mark]

Wait... at -40...

Car tires become so stiff that it takes miles before they get anywhere near round.

Old style transmission grease is so stiff that your truck will move in neutral when you let the clutch out. Not very far, but it moves. It doesn't move very far because the 90W in the rear axle wraps around the gears and brings it to a halt.

Your hands freeze to the doorhandles.

You can't skate, because the ice feels like trying to skate on concrete.

Light, feathery stuff that looks like snow will fall from a cloudless sky, and when you walk through it, it billows up and around you, without a sound.

The soles of your shoes will adhere a small layer of snow to them when you go outside. When you come back in, they'll freeze to the floor briefly, until the floor surface finally re-warms enough to re-melt that thin coating of ice.

Anti-freeze in jugs coagulates.

The inside of your windows become a solid mass of ice and nothing you can do will clear them.

"Rubber" boots will break.

You can make ice cream, but you have to dump the maker real fast, because the salt water will freeze.

Motor oil of almost any typical grade won't run out of a bottle.

Gasoline has almost no smell, because it wont' evaporate.

Propane appliances stop working because the propane won't evaporate in any tank left outside. You have to heat the tank in order to get enough pressure to use it.

The vent to your gas or propane water heater will clog up with frost.

If you exert yourself until you're panting, you may kill yourself because the delicate tissues in your lungs can freeze. The cold shock to your body core can kill you, if you breath deep and fast enough.

Your nose freezes the tissues inside slightly, even if you cover your face and breath air warmed slightly by a mask.

Dry cell batteries will barely function, and only for a brief period.

The moisture from your body will cause your outer clothes, if you're wearing jeans, for instance, to freeze. Your pants become stiff after a while, even if you're not getting snow on them.

While idling, your car motor will cool off to the point the controls think it's a cold start condition. The cold is so bitter you risk breakage of major components like springs, axles, or cracking of the sheet metal.

Normal diesel looks like rotted milk, and it doesn't pour any better.

Jumper cables, battery cables, fan belts, heater hoses, all become so stiff you can't manipulate them.

Walking outside in a t-shirt and jeans for 2 minutes will result in lowering your body's core temperature enough you must take the next half hour in a very heated environment to regain normal temperature. You risk medical problems.

You feel warm buried under snow, in comparison to the open air.

Ice on your windshield turns directly from ice to vapor - if you have enough heat to be able to clear it.

Green tree branches will shatter.

even well-sloped drain pipes must be heat taped and insulated, or they will coat with ice and clog.

swinging an ax or splitting maul at a block of wood that isn't perfectly dry risks your life, because the ax or maul will bounce back at you with almost the same force it hit the block.

Just for those of you who haven't experienced it, that kind of cold is a world away from your "normal". It's almost like an alien world.

[jober]

All this talk of faster speeds but is the Wrap board fast enough to handle 54Mbps or 100Mbps. I've never seen my Router Board get over 20Mbps.

[bobbyc]

Mikrotik is releasing the routerboard 500 soon... and a daughterboard to handle up to 6 minipci radios. Hope they don't put any trickery into the board that keeps starOS from working on it :)
Bob C

[lonnie]

We will not be porting to the MT 500 routerboard. This is an exciting time with lots of new announcements. And that is all I can say.

[phendry]

We will not be porting to the MT 500 routerboard. This is an exciting time with lots of new announcements. And that is all I can say.

Ooooo you are such a tease. Hope it's soon because I really need something faster to replace the WRAP's we have up the tower.

On a side note, why would you want to live in such a place?? There must be some "pros" to outway all those "cons" ;)

[funkywizard]

pros: ..... gold?

Seriously though, Fairbanks started as a gold boom town, although only because people promised gold; there never was a whole lot of it.

Same thing now, they promise a cheap education, then you find out, well, the college up here sucks and the administration are a bunch of a**-***es.

so pros = false promise?

[phendry]

Well it's good to hear your not bitter ;)

[lonnie]

Ooooo you are such a tease. Hope it's soon because I really need something faster to replace the WRAP's we have up the tower.

On a side note, why would you want to live in such a place?? There must be some "pros" to outway all those "cons" ;)

I guess the scenery and life style is the big thing. We are going to spend Easter in a remote ski lodge. We will fly in by Helicopter and some of the group will use snowmobiles. This is real backcountry skiing. Check it out at http://www.davehenry.com/ This is just one example of places I do not have to travel to. It is right here. If I ever want to experience traffic jams and people, I simply drive to the city. It does not take long for the big city charm to wear real thin.

[mp3turbo]

was this the great announcement, Lonnie? :)

[lonnie]

OK. If that will satisfy you guys, I am OK with it. Maybe I'll make it a requirement that to be able to get v3 you have to take a 1 week training course in at the Dave Henry Lodge.

[phendry]

Sounds good to me but only if there are annual refresher courses. Snowboarder myself ;)

[lonnie]

Some of the best back country boarding is to be found. Boarding is hard work in the back country, as I'm sure you are aware. You get the best powder snow that way though.

I just like the get away time.

[funkywizard]

I guess the scenery and life style is the big thing. We are going to spend Easter in a remote ski lodge. We will fly in by Helicopter and some of the group will use snowmobiles. This is real backcountry skiing. Check it out at http://www.davehenry.com/ This is just one example of places I do not have to travel to. It is right here. If I ever want to experience traffic jams and people, I simply drive to the city. It does not take long for the big city charm to wear real thin.
Oh yeah, a lot of Alaska is really great, I just don't like some aspects of fairbanks. The scenery is really great at hatchers pass and also in the denali borough. In Anchorage you get a really great view of the mountains every day. Fairbanks, by comparison, has a lot less of the benefits of Alaska, and intensifies a lot of the negatives. It has its own charm though, and a lot of the people here like it.

[gaf@bluerivernet.com]

How about Mimo and multiple links between APs on Backhauls so we can fully exploit DS3 and OC3 bandwidth at the headend? Load Balancing etc?

We can already deliver 23 megs to a CPE using 802.11A. But, the best we can do is about 3300KB between APs on the backhaul..

[ripv]

FD should give 20Mb/sec both directions simultaneously

http://forums.star-os.com/showpost.php?p=53072&postcount=1

[lonnie]

It is in the works, but I will not comment any further, except to say it is NOT Atheros based.

[tog]

The big technology lead that Atheros had with proprietary extensions to 11a and 11g have been pretty much incorporated into the 11n draft standard so one 11n vendor's as good as another at this point in terms of chipset technology, as long as they don't have chipset bugs or poor or inaccurate documentation.

Beware that huge caveat, your developer will be a very frustrated individual if he has to deal with the documentation and chip from the Realteks and Ralinks of the world...

[lonnie]

We are going with the next leader in wireless and their documentation is decent, so we'll be OK.

[tog]

Great, no major change in doctrine from Valemount then. Still avoiding being penny wise and pound foolish... Using the good chips for a few bucks more rather than choosing the Ralinks of the world.

I hope they have some 2x2 stuff and maybe some STBC.

[lonnie]

We'll use what we think is the best. Always have and always will.

[David L. Vrablic]

I want to add this is coming at a very good time.
I am getting customer request for ever increasing BW on point to point links.
I shudder to think of building dual FD systems back to back on the same site.
------------
I have 4 systems in the works right now that want "as much as they can get"
I was designing for 32 Dbi FD dishes.

What are the antenna configurations like for these new generation radios?

[lonnie]

Atennas will be 2x2