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View Full Version : goofy test with unexpected results


georgew
02-23-2004, 11:44 AM
I have a couple of 1 watt teletronics amps I only use for "tests". When I put them on an orioco card they work about as well as a senao card without an amp, they are louder, but with such a high noise floor that seems to undo part of the advantage...

For the fist time I put one on a senao card. Something I would never do, except on a whim.

BAM! No noise increase whatsoever, but a massive increase in sensitivity, Output signal seems identical to not having the amp at all, the far end didn't see any change in signal. But on the receiving end, the receive amp was low in noise (-98db) and had 30db(!!) of improvement on the signal. And this is in a box with another AP radio, so there should be some local noise in the box. Obviously a 12db receive amp should not provide 30db of amplification, so the numbers have got to be off somehow... but the unit acts like the numbers are real.

I totally did not expect the results. It's a smartamp, so the output gain is probably turned down or off because I'm blasting the input with too strong a signal. With the output amp turned down, the unit does not seem to add any noise.

I theorize that the noise floor of an amp might be influenced by noise in the can from the output amp that has not fully powered down, and if you could power that amp down by not turning it on in the first place, you end up with a substantal increase in sensitivity, and you don't get the usual increase in the noise floor.

I have had people tell me that smartamps work good for them, and I always assumed they were full of it, based on my own experience and the experience of others here.

bobbyc
02-23-2004, 02:09 PM
"but the unit acts like the numbers are real."

I've been thinking for a while now that the hermes cards look at the signal and noise numbers, and decide on that how to perform. Meaning if I had a orinoco that reported a signal of 75 and a noise of 85, and I had another orinoco that had a signal of 75 but was somehow modified to show a noise floor of -98 (even though the noise source was still there), the modified orinoco would have faster rates.
This is my guess of why the senaos work so well. A couple months ago I had a tower that a cellular tenant went up on and now there is a sidelobe that interferes with channels 9-11. I had a orinoco AP and the noise floor was -84. I swapped it out for a senao and the noise floor is now reported as -95. The performance is great, but I know that the noise source still is there because if I put the orinoco AP back in there, the noise floor is -84.

To really test your 1W amp/senao, I would associate a client to the senao and try to create a connection with a signal of around -78. If the senao/1Wamp actually doesn't amplify noise, then you should have a decent connection speedwise.

One more thing about the senaos: If there is lots of noise, the senao will be effected but not as much as a orinoco/hermes card. I had a senao with vertical sector and about 20 clients. The clients would get random packetloss and I ended up having to lock their rates at 5.5. The senao AP would show a noise of -95 but I knew there was much more noise than that by swapping it for a orinoco and seeing a high noise floor.
I switched the sector to horizontal, and visited each client... but now that senao AP is smokin fast and has all clients locked at 11mbps, even a couple wet11 v2 (hermes) unamped at 8.5 miles.
Bob C

lanebob
02-23-2004, 10:44 PM
I switched the sector to horizontal, and visited each client... but now that senao AP is smokin fast and has all clients locked at 11mbps, even a couple wet11 v2 (hermes) unamped at 8.5 miles.

Just wondering at the Horizontal sector, what are the specs on the one you are using? And that Senao AP is 200mW? How much loss do you believe the cabeling has?

Also, you say a cisco/wet11 at 8.5 miles, I am wondering what the nature of that/those install(s) are. What Antenna? Cable? Are they power over ethernet, and if so, of what distance? Do you use the stock wall wart <transformer> ?

Thanks,

-lanebob

bobbyc
02-23-2004, 11:31 PM
The sector is a radiowaves 16dB 90 degree horizontal. They are the best antennas on the market next to maxrad IMO. Since I have a 16dB sector, and a 23dB Senao AP, I have well over 3dB of loss by using 50' of ldf4-50a plus n connectors and pigtail.

The client at 8 miles with a WET11v2 is a 24dB grid and about 40-50' of lmr400.... so we didn't have to use POE. Signal/Noise is -71/-65 -99/-91.
I have another client at 8.5 miles off this tower with a orinoco usb, 24dB grid and 40-50' of lmr400 as well. Signal/Noise is -71/-68 -99/-99.
Bob C

lanebob
02-24-2004, 10:02 AM
Hi!

Hey, thanks for the reply. I have been trying to decide on poe vs. lmr cable runs a lot lately...

Regards,

-lanebob