Wireless channels on StarOS atheros

[h3ll]

Hi,
I really like to see mikrotik like implementation on setting wireless channels on atheros cards. For example - to choose exact frequency on steps of 10mhz from say 5,1 ghz till 5.8 ghz.
that will give us 70 channels to choose from. This is very handy if there are lots of wireless links together and not much frequency.
Also these steps to be available in turbo mode.
Thats about all for now, i dont think it's a problem to implement...


what you think?

[lonnie]

Sorry but we follow the Atheros guidelines and they do it to achieve FCC acceptance. If you use non-standard channels all you accomplish is interference on the two channels you are in between.

The extra channels you think you have are just like the 11 channels in 802.11b. Actually only three are truly usable and if you choose channel 5 for instance you interfere with channels 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. This is great if your intention is to wreck it for everybody else.

[tony]

Also note that providing the full range of 5.1 to 5.8 ghz range steps on many millitary, and airport raidar frequencies in several countries, even the US. Many countries also consider part of the 5.x band as licensed.

We do what we can to stay within each country's power, and frequency range.

[lonnie]

If we do not all use this stuff responsibly then we'll lose it. The best advice I can give is to select your country from the country codes and stay within the guidelines allowed. It might be tempting to step out and get some exclusive channels, but in the long run it will hurt you and the rest of the Industry.

It is OK to push gently at the limits as that sometime creates change, but to clearly defy the laws is stupid, since that results in a harsh reaction from authorities.

[bkehoe]

I use mikrotik, and I dont have this option for the channels. AFAIK they will only unlock that stuff (as well as operation in 2.5 - 2.7GHz mmds band) if you can prove to them that you have permission or a license to operate on the frequencies you want.

[h3ll]

Well maybe i didnt explain in detail. Now my test machines are not in my reach to tell you exactly wwhat i see, but the real problem is lets say i have 20mhz bands in low spectrum 5.15-5.35 (besides i live in EU and i really need 5.4-5.7) so i have 200 mhz or 10 clear channels to use. The turbo mode binds 2 channels together, so i get 20+20=40 mhz or 5 selectable channels, but in fact in staros i have only 3.... why is that?
I'll tell you different situation - lets say i have on my roof a guy that uses 20 mhz (no turbo) from 5.150-5.170 and everything from 5.210 till 5350 is used, so in that case i need to change my card to transmit @ 5.170-5.210. Thats the point.

@ bkehoe man type in mikrotik /interface wireless info print

0 tx-power-control=yes ack-timeout-control=yes supported-bands=2GHz-B,5GHz,5GHz-turbo,2GHz-G
2GHz-B-channels=2312,2317,2322,2327,2332,2337,2342,2347,2 352,2357,2362,2367,2372,2412,2417,2422,2427,2432,2 437,2442,2447,2452,2457,2462,2467,2472,2512,
2532,2552,2572,2592,2612,2632,2652,2672,2692,2712, 2732,2484
5GHz-channels=5120,5125,5130,5135,5140,5145,5150,5155,5 160,5165,5170,5175,5180,5185,5190,5195,5200,5205,5 210,5215,5220,5225,5230,5235,5240,5245,5250,
5255,5260,5265,5270,5275,5280,5285,5290,5295,5300, 5305,5310,5315,5320,5325,5330,5335,5340,5345,5350, 5355,5360,5365,5370,5375,5380,5385,
5390,5395,5400,5405,5410,5415,5420,5425,5430,5435, 5440,5445,5450,5455,5460,5465,5470,5475,5480,5485, 5490,5495,5500,5505,5510,5515,5520,
5525,5530,5535,5540,5545,5550,5555,5560,5565,5570, 5575,5580,5585,5590,5595,5600,5605,5610,5615,5620, 5625,5630,5635,5640,5645,5650,5655,
5660,5665,5670,5675,5680,5685,5690,5695,5700,5705, 5710,5715,5720,5725,5730,5735,5740,5745,5750,5755, 5760,5765,5770,5775,5780,5785,5790,
5795,5800,5805,5810,5815,5820,5825,5830,5835,5840, 5845,5850,5855,5860,5865,5870,5875,5880,5885,5890, 5895,5900,5905,5910,5915,5920,5925,
5930,5935,5940,5945,5950,5955,5960,5965,5970,5975, 5980,5985,5990,5995,6000,6005,6010,6015,6020,6025, 6030,6035,6040,6045,6050,6055,6060,
6065,6070,6075,6080,6085,6090,6095,6100
5GHz-turbo-channels=5120,5125,5130,5135,5140,5145,5150,5155,5 160,5165,5170,5175,5180,5185,5190,5195,5200,5205,5 210,5215,5220,5225,5230,5235,5240,5245,
5250,5255,5260,5265,5270,5275,5280,5285,5290,5295, 5300,5305,5310,5315,5320,5325,5330,5335,5340,5345, 5350,5355,5360,5365,5370,5375,
5380,5385,5390,5395,5400,5405,5410,5415,5420,5425, 5430,5435,5440,5445,5450,5455,5460,5465,5470,5475, 5480,5485,5490,5495,5500,5505,
5510,5515,5520,5525,5530,5535,5540,5545,5550,5555, 5560,5565,5570,5575,5580,5585,5590,5595,5600,5605, 5610,5615,5620,5625,5630,5635,
5640,5645,5650,5655,5660,5665,5670,5675,5680,5685, 5690,5695,5700,5705,5710,5715,5720,5725,5730,5735, 5740,5745,5750,5755,5760,5765,
5770,5775,5780,5785,5790,5795,5800,5805,5810,5815, 5820,5825,5830,5835,5840,5845,5850,5855,5860,5865, 5870,5875,5880,5885,5890,5895,
5900,5905,5910,5915,5920,5925,5930,5935,5940,5945, 5950,5955,5960,5965,5970,5975,5980,5985,5990,5995, 6000,6005,6010,6015,6020,6025,
6030,6035,6040,6045,6050,6055,6060,6065,6070,6075, 6080,6085,6090,6095,6100
2GHz-G-channels=2312,2317,2322,2327,2332,2337,2342,2347,2 352,2357,2362,2367,2372,2412,2417,2422,2427,2432,2 437,2442,2447,2452,2457,2462,2467,2472,2512,
2532,2552,2572,2592,2612,2632,2652,2672,2692,2712, 2732,2484

and then do /interface wireless set wlan1 frequency=XXXX


thats about it.

[bkehoe]

While not wanting to turn this into a MT support forum, I'm pasting more from it here. ;) If you're seeing channels like that you must have purchased the license to allow it - i.e. if you proved to them you could use frequencies outside the standard allocation and paid them whatever it is they want. Is turbo mode legal elsewhere in Europe? Only allowed 20MHz here in Ireland just at 5.725 - 5.875

2GHz-B- channels=2412,2417,2422,2427,2432,2437,2442,2447,2 452,2457,2462,2467,2472
5GHz-channels=5180,5200,5220,5240,5260,5280,5300,5320,5 745,5765,5785,5805
5GHz-turbo-channels=5210,5250,5290,5760,5800

[jlawrence]

Will someone explain how these channels are worked out.
ie what is needed for a turbo channel.
I've been reading ir2007 which is the rules in the UK - for 5.8GHz which is what I'm interested in.
It talks about 5MHz, 10MHz and 20Mhz channelisation - what does that actually mean. I took it to mean the frequency between channels.

Does any one know what the 5GHz-turbo frequencies are ??
Have we got any in the UK ? I know we can't use 5795 thru' 5815.

Should have my 5.8 license through shortly so I can start playing outside with some decent antenna's :)

[bkehoe]

That would probably be the amount of spectrum each channel takes up - 20MHz in the case of standard 802.11a. Turbo requires 40MHz, which isnt allowed here in Ireland anyway.

[h3ll]

@ bkhoe - man, i'm working with wireless devices 3 years already, so every little trick to make it work faster is a plus for me. that is why i want staros to do tricks like mikrotik do but for less price of course.

So, Lonnie, is it possible to implement this feature in StarOS?

btw, recent analisys in crowded 2.4 band revealed that working on channels 1,4,8 and 11 isn't different than using 1,6 and 11

[bkehoe]

In my experience, tony/lonnie will only make changes to the Atheros region settings if you can give them the appropiate documents/links to communications regulator docs/etc to prove that you're allowed to legally use what you're requesting. Thats what we had to do to let us use 5.8GHz in Staros in Ireland.
Seeing as you're in Europe, why dont you use 1, 5, 9 and 13? Works perfectly for us.

[h3ll]

bkhoe, i have currently on one of my spots 6 links (5 in different channels), and if i want to move to staros i would like to have same setup same frequencies. But with current config (only 3 channels in lower 5g spectrum turbo mode) i will have interference.

[lonnie]

You are missing the point. The Atheros has a 20 MHz channel bandwidth for the 5.x GHz bands. By choosing channel spacing less than the bandwidth you simply cause interference for yourself and especially for others.

Now, if we could set the cards to only use 5 MHz or 10 MHz then a smaller spacing would accomplish something. But we can't so why bother.

My analogy would be a Supermarket parking lot. If everybody drives a big old luxury car what good does it do to have small compact car size markings for the parking lot? No matter how you park you will be interfering with two spots. Even if the markings were big enough, by not parking in the between the lines like the other users, you will be taking two spots. It gets worse if you bring a big old bus or motorhome and park it in the middle of one. You'll take up 3, 4, or 5 spots.

So, to play nice you should figure out what the standard channels are and use that plan, even if you have the ability to do otherwise.

As for Turbo mode that is what you get since we follow the standard.

As for your use of Turbo I really doubt if you are actually seeing any better performance, and are only chewing up the band. Tell me what sort of throughput you can get with your system in Turbo. Our findings are that unless you have a PIII 500 or better you will not have the processing power required to see the benefits of Turbo.

Try a test - set to rate of 6 mbps, turn off turbo and test a download, taking note of the throughput. Now enable Turbo and 108 mbps and do the download again and compare the speed. Please report back, and in fact I'd appreciate if a few other guys would try this simple test and report back your results.

[h3ll]

i never did that .... will test it in next few days.
btw i never had a doubt that turbo is faster than single channel till now. interesting

[tony]

The Atheros hardware, using the StarOS platform has been known to produce speeds in excess of 14,000KBytes/sec using Turbo in G and A modes on standard "PC" hardware such as a C3 733. The problem comes with SBC systems, such as the Geode or SC520 in that they only have the ability to push ~3,000KB/sec max. Since the standard Atheros cards can easilly pull this in standard, non-turbo modes you will find that enabling turbo will produce the same performance numbers, since doubling the available bandwidth still does not help the fact that the CPU cannot push more than 3MB/s.

The SC520 systems (such as the Soekris) have a peak of roughly 1,500KB/s throughput via ethernet and Atheros.

Thanks!

[georgew]

You are missing the point. The Atheros has a 20 MHz channel bandwidth for the 5.x GHz bands. By choosing channel spacing less than the bandwidth you simply cause interference for yourself and especially for others.

I don't know that I agree. Using this logic, the 802.11b radios should only have channels 1, 6 and 11...

But for me on one of my links, channel 8 is the only one that works! If I only had 1, 6 and 11, then I couldn't have that link.

The point is that when you can't find a noise-free channel, you are SOL. If you can choose from all of the available center frequencies (within legal ranges for your bandwidth) you can actually reduce or eliminate interference because you were able to find the quietest channel.

It's not an issue of using channels we aren't supposed to use, it is an issue of being able to use the in-between channels because sometimes those are the best ones.

[mp3turbo]

hello guys,

> It's not an issue of using channels we aren't supposed to use, it is an
> issue of being able to use the in-between channels because sometimes
> those are the best ones

this is THE ONE!!! YES THEY F*UCK*NG ARE !!! I think this was what was called for. Direct example:

let's say there are channels 149 (5.745ghz), 153 (5.765ghz), 157 (5.785ghz), 161 (5.805ghz), 165 (5.825ghz) available - this is from commercial product. Nobody wants to avoid laws, yeah, so instead of widening this range beyond 5.825 or below 5.745 you could just implement MIDDLE frequencies - let's call them as channels "151" 5.755ghz, 155 5.775ghz, 159 5.795ghz, 163 5.815ghz. See? This is what microtik did and you end up with basically not 20MHz, but 10MHz step instead. Nothing more, nothing less.

My lawyers made me to say this:

THIS IS COMPLETELY LEGAL TO IMPLEMENT AS THE RADIO SYSTEM WILL STILL BE WORKING IN ALLOWED FREQUENCY RANGE. THERE ARE NO CHANNELS DEFINED NOR OTHER DIRECTIVES AS OF FREQ. USAGE - THERE IS JUST RANGE AND YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT TO DO WITHIN IT. YOU WILL NOT USE OTHER FREQUENCIES, YOU WILL JUST USE ALLOWED FREQUENCIES MORE "CUTELY" or TRICKY ie. YOU WILL JUST AVOID USING CORE FREQ. OTHERS ARE USING. SHIFTING YOUR CORE FREQ. 10MHz UP OR DOWN WILL LET YOU DO MIRACLES. BELIEVE ME, WE HAVE DONE THIS WITH MICROTIK MANY TIMES AND IT IS A _GOD'S GIFT_ !! IN A CROWDED AREA, WE WERE NOT ABLE TO GET MORE THAN 1500kB/s ON ANY CHANNEL, AFTER MANUALLY SETTING FREQ. USED SO IT FELL _BETWEEN_ STANDARD CORE FREQUENCIES, WE WERE ABLE TO OBTAIN AT LEAST (!!!) 2500kB/s ON THE MOST USED CHANNEL AND WE ENDED WITH 4500kB/s ON THE BEST ONE!! NOW CALL THAT A DIFFERENCE!!) JUST BECAUSE OF THIS, COMPANY WAS !FORCED! TO BUY MIKROTIK'S SOLUTION - IT IS THE ONLY ONE THAT COULD DO THIS AND THEY WERE ABLE TO IMPLEMENT IT WITHIN TWO DAYS. OF COURSE, THEY COULD BUY SOME LICENSED SPECTRUM RADIO FOR 30x MORE, ASK AUTHORITIES TO YOU KNOW WHAT... AND IMPLEMENT IT IN TWO MONTHS OR SO... THEY SAW WHAT MIKROTIK CAN DO FOR THEM, THEY BOUGHT IT MANY TIMES SINCE THEN AND THEY ARE GOING TO BUY IT IN FUTURE. ENOUGH SAID.

So, the decision is up to you. I see no problems, when microtik did it, I can't understand why you can't. Freedom to choose (but not to abuse, NOBODOY is asking for this) is what customers definitely WILL appreciate. What about creating a poll on this?

bye, mp3turbo.

[h3ll]

Thanks guys for support - i really need this feature to optimize my wireless network too. Hope to see it in next releases.

[mp3turbo]

hi everybody,

let me react:

> If you use non-standard channels all you accomplish is interference on
> the two channels you are in between.

you are right, but you cause less interference this way then when you are forced to use the same freq. as your competitors are, ie. if there are all 5 channels used in 5.7-5.8 range, it doesn't make sense to use freq. 5.745 or 5.765 (or whichever, let's consider the bandwidth is full, that means ALL 5 independent channels are used). Believe me, you definitely will cause less interference to your competitors when you're able to use 5.755 instead of two beforementioned frequencies, 5.745 or 5.765. Simply said, what's better : having to choose from FIVE alternatives (which are exhausted already) or TEN ?

> The extra channels you think you have are just like the 11 channels in
> 802.11b. Actually only three are truly usable and if you choose channel
> 5 for instance you interfere with channels 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. This is
> great if your intention is to wreck it for everybody else.

you are right, but... guys, I've always envied throughput you get - I'm getting nowehere else your 600kB/s numbers. Reason? Well, urban area, 150.000 people on a few square miles. 13 channels, 51 (!!) subjects, will send you photos of antennas, actually I'm uploading them, will post tomorrow. Still I'm able to get more than 100kB/s on my channels... slipping to almost 200kB/s in evenings and morning. What can I do? Nothing. It's simply full. But - everybody knows that there is going to be a lot of interference and people still didn't refuse to use this technology - it's cheap and easy... Considering the ideal situation and proposal given in your post, when there are channels 1, 7 and 13 busy, there shouldn't be anyone else coming - but you'd be surprised, they are and they will be. Everyone knows that and accepts that. The situation will change a bit with 5GHz technology, where you have >10.000kB/s available on one channel instead of 600kB/s available in 2.4GHz band - there are more subjects going to 'fit'.

Guys, I crave. Plead. Beg. Be so kind and let us, users - your customers - decide what is the best for us. I understand you're bound by regulations etc - you're NOT going to violate them. You are not going to allow us to use frequencies we shouldn't use. You just CAN allow us to use them trickier and cleverly - not in 20MHz steps, but in 10MHz. That's it. I'm surprised to see nobody so far, except mikrotik and really high-cost devices, came with such a solution. Reminds me situation four years ago : there were only Abit boards with overclocking capabilities. The MARKET forced others to do so. Maybe they were not willing, they didn't like it, but they had to. In order to sell. In order to survive.

Did I say something wrong?

Please.

thnx, mp3turbo.

[tony]

I will discuss this with Lonnie, and see what we can do.

Note that if we do allow a lower frequency steping, other 802.11a products (including Atheros under Windows, etc.) will be unable to associate to your AP if using one of the 'between' frequencies.

[mp3turbo]

sir, yes, sir, we don't care, sir.

You're right, no windows, no standard clients. Think about that as the 'added opportunity' to lock in your customers :)

[Pete_WirelessWales]

...and keep your backbone links free from prying eyes (well, reduce, anyway...)

[mp3turbo]

> ...and keep your backbone links free from prying eyes (well, reduce, anyway...)

ANOTHER GOOD REASON !!! As simple as that...

[bobbyc]

Ok I was in support of the way things currently until I saw the 'prying eyes post'. Great idea; especially when there is no hide SSID (yet).
Bob C

[lonnie]

Let's not fool ourselves that by using an "off" channel you have security. Feeling safe in such a situation would hurt you big time. I bet it would take the stumbler guys 20 minutes to have it scanning the extra channels.

Which brings up another interesting thing - this will now take 4x as long to scan channels and lock in.

We are going to offer the in between channels as an option in the standard edition. The increased frequency range will take some time for us to work out. Don't worry, we have that working and we have played with it since early November. It will just take some time while we figure out how to license the ability. Atheros has cautioned that it would be frowned upon by the FCC if we sell software that can break their rules.

I will stress that a whole bunch of aviation and military guys use the bands in question and if you are not careful you could get in a whole lot of trouble.

[uberfusion]

Just checking. This feature is available now?

[lonnie]

No it is not.

[uberfusion]

This feature will available in V3?

[lonnie]

I was told it is not approved to go between channels since it effectively interferes with two channels and thus appears to be really noisy on both of them. We have to remember the standards and not hurt the Industry in our desire to have our radios work, but at the expense of others.

[phendry]

A good and valid point. Shame other software houses aren't so concerned with protecting the industry.