New 'Ciscorized' WET11 as CPE

[avara]

Has anyone tested this for use as a CPE, and what's the receive sensitivity etc?

[georgew]

I don't know why it would be any different than it was before the Cisco buyout. Linksys didn't make the WET11, they just OEM'd it from someone else. They did not write the software, they only put their name on it. When Cisco buys things, they don't throw all of the software away and start over, if they did that it wouldn't make sense to buy the company.

I wouldn't expect any real changes.


The WET11's I used took a lot of attention. Reboots and frequent failures requiring replacement.

[avara]

Cisco actually changed the chipset that the WET11's use shortly after they bought Linksys, so I thought perhaps that would make a difference.

Currently I have been testing D-Link DWL-810+'s around the office for over a year, and also attached an antenna and got perfect links when testing up to 10km (I did not get a chance to test anything beyond 10km. They're cheaper -- about $60 each from Buy.com -- but D-Link do not publish receive sensitivity. They use a Texas Instruments chipset.

Never had a DWL-810+ hang, freeze or do anything weird. But, with no receive sensitivity information, I do not feel confident in using them.

Edit: What I am looking for, since I will have to offer commercial service for around $20 a month with no equipment fees apart from paying the installer, is an Ethernet-based CPE with PoE for no more than $100, since the anntenna etc already adds to that anyway.

[avara]

Looking at this at the moment as well:
http://www.senao.com.tw/english/product/product_wireless01_outdoor_1.asp?tp1id=02&tp2id=02 &proid=000026

I have not found a good source for them though, they seem pricey and I have not seen them actually "in action", plus while the web site mentions PoE I do not know whether this is included.

Basically while I am looking to keep the cost without the antenna, outdoor box and pigtail below $100, I am flexible on that. Obviously I do not want a cheap solution just for the sake of being below that price, if it will be crap.

[georgew]

I would be happy to see something good come from cisco in the cheap cpe department.... But even the smartbridge stuff is below par in my experience.

I have one of the CB3's finally (took three months to get it from www.wispgear.com, I placed two similar orders a few days apart and they got confused and only shipped the smaller of the two orders... then failed to answer the phone or return calls for three months, so I don't suggest you buy it there) I'll put it in a test situation and let you know how it works...

[avara]

Looking forward to hear from you on how the testing goes.

My requirements are:
-- Cost of below $100 if possible, since the antenna and outdoor box will add to the cost and push this up!
-- PoE included in the price.
-- Must be reliable and good quality. I would rather pay more than have something that doesn't really work very well.

[georgew]

The best performance I have seen so far using non-staros cpe was with smartbridges, they only need rebooting every month or so, though some seem to go longer.

Now I do have another deal that works.... a used PC with StarOS. I have StarOS machines that have run untouched for a year, with the only reboots being when I upgrade the firmware. Used pc's start in the $25 range, and come with all you need except the radio card. You should be able to fit within your price goal easiest with a used pc. And StarOS will exceed the quality of any of the bridging units. An added advantage of the StarOS box is you can log into it and do diagnostics and firewalls, so when a virus sweeps through, you can do more than cuss.

After a couple years of beta trials with a dozen different systems, StarOS is 10 times more stable than the next best thing.

When you have to visit the customer several times the first month, then have frustrated calls from them at least monthly, with lots of truck rolls, suddenly scrimping on cheap CPE starts to make less sense. I typically do two truck rolls on a StarOS install... one for the install, and one to follow up, either because I was missing something the day I did the install, or to help set-up another computer, or some other minor issue. For example, I have one where the radio cards I used were old used ones because I was out of new ones on the day of install... and the used ones are flaking out.

But about a quarter of the StarOS installs were one visit wonders... I think this reflects on the fact I am still doing beta type setups, so about a quarter of the time I get it right the first time... none of the return visits are StarOS's fault.

[David L. Vrablic]

Again I agree with George,
Cheaper doesn't mean less expensive!

Grandad used to say "Ya can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear"...
The first time a customer pushes a reset button and sets everything back to defaults and you can't get to their bridge you have yet another truck roll on your hands.
Add to that the "Family Circus reply", Nobody did it, and it can ruin your day.
Truck rolls are expensive.
I hate not being in control of both ends at all times.

Can't wait for the WRAP boards! :P :D

[avara]

The reset button, would, thankfully be out of reach in an outdoor box! As I said, I am not looking for the cheapest. While obviously staying under $100 for the radio and PoE setup would be great, what it comes down to for me at the end of the day is value for money.

For example I have been, as I mentioned, testing the DWL-810+'s for a while. None of them have ever required a reboot, and they seem _very_ reliable, but I am concerned about the radio because D-Link have not released any receive sensitivity on it, and I am not sure whether Texas Instruments make good radios.

I am looking to house the radios in a 6x6x4 outdoor NEMA4 rated enclosure with built in 13dBi antenna. I can also get them in 8x8x4 if need be. That is not very practical with a full PC-type setup. The bottom line is that I cannot charge customers for the equipment, and the subscription rate cannot be more than $25 per month. At the end of the day, again, it needs to be reliable. I would rather pay more than have a $100 radio that just simply does not work very well.

[dkii]

I have had very good results with dwl-900ap's I have about 60 of them deployed, they occasionally lock up, but very rarely. I don't think I've had 10 of them lock up since I started using them. Just tell the customer to pull power and plug it back in and they're happy.

[avara]

The DWL-900AP's use the same Texas Instruments 22Mbps radios as the DWL-810AP's and DWL-810's (the new version with a + in front of the name). The only difference as far as I know is that the firmware offers a few more features. The DWL-810's cost $60 from Buy.com. How much are you paying for the DWL-900AP's you're using, and what does your deployment look like, what access point do you use?

Also, when you deploy them at customer house, do you have them in the house with a long cable to the antenna, or do you have them in an outdoor box right behind the antenna with power over ethernet?

Hope I don't ask too many questions! :D

[bluezx9r]

For me the DWL-900+ have been rock solid for 8+ months.

I have two of then setup as a bridge (4 miles LOS across a lake), they both sit inside with 50 feel of LMR-400 and 24DB grid antennas. The connection is solid at 11Mbps and I get +- 600 KBps.

Be carefull, you won't get any support from D-link, I don't even think they have a QA process setup. They have release several version of their firmware under the same version numbers... but with the help of a few good hackers that were able to fix the firmware (antenna selection, power output, etc...). It's now a pretty good product for an AP and Bridge, I haven't had the chance to use the repeater, multi-point bridge mode...

Overall, I'm very satisfied with the 900ap. They have been rock solid, I can't say the same thing about the 614+...

ST

[CompuTron]

Again I agree with George,
The first time a customer pushes a reset button and sets everything back to defaults and you can't get to their bridge you have yet another truck roll on your hands.


I just had a brainstorm regarding the above quote. If a CPE had 2 ethernet ports, could one use the 2nd port (set for DHCP) to hit the LAN side of the customer's router (linksys, dlink, whatever) to allow for remote configuration if the above quote happens. I figure a $8 realtek card & some cable is cheaper then a truck roll.

[lonnie]

Yes, we usually put multiples just for that reason.

[georgew]

It's not the right forum for this, but it is the right thread....

How about putting a terminal program in for the serial port.
Give us an option to unconfigure the serial port console, and use it to be a console off of another device.

In the past I would build pc firewall machines, and nail the T1 cisco down so that it could not be remotely managed. Then null modem the firewall box to the Cisco to reenable remote management, only from a box with better security. Cisco's have crappy security (telnet with plaintext passwords on the wire, and easy brute-force hacking), it is a wonder they don't get constantly hacked.

[bairdc]

If you're looking at products for CPE devices that are intended for home use (ie WET11, DWL-810, etc) one thing you need to watch out for is whether it supports RTS/CTS. We were using WET11s for a couple of months last year, and then switched to Smartbridges due to the lack of RTS/CTS in the WET11 units. If you plan on growing your network to any significant size, you'd better use RTS/CTS. On the other hand, if you plan on keeping a fairly small number of clients per AP, it's probably not as big a deal.

In a previous thread, bobbyc mentioned that the new Cisco-ized WET11 is based on a hermes chipset, rather than the prism card that the old WET11 used. If that's the case, I think an assumption could be made that the new WET11s will pick up RTS/CTS settings automagically from a StarOS AP that is running an Agere card with RTS enabled.

I don't know if the new WET11 is any more stable than the old one. Most of our WET11's have actually been quite stable. Most of them are in outdoor boxes, and are fed via D-Link POE units, and I wonder if that contributes to their stability. We do have a handful of WET11s that are installed inside the customer's house (without POE) and we seem to have more stability problems with those than with the outdoor ones.

I do wonder if a lot of the CPE lockup problems that you hear about are mostly due to power issues. Most cheap home networking type gear will freeze when the power is not stable. That's something to keep in mind. You mentioned you've been testing the DWL-810 in an office environment. A home environment may be very different when it comes to power stability.

Craig

[avara]

The new WET11 is based on the Hermes chip-set as far as I am aware of as you suggest, however I have heard that the new hermes chip-set is essentially "crap".

[bairdc]

I wasn't aware that there was a new Hermes chipset. I sort of figured that the new WET11s were basically the old WET11 with an agere card instead of a prism. I haven't really spent any time investigating this though, so you may very well be correct...

Craig

[szern]

There was some discussion regarding the "new" Linksys Wet11 on the broadbandreports WISP forum. You can check it out at the link below:

http://www.broadbandreports.com/forum/remark,8664768~mode=flat

Hope this helps...

- Szern

[avara]

At least that confirms that Cisco replaced it with a Hermes chipset... I guess Senao might be the way to go. Now to find a good source for Senao kit...

[william]

The Senao 2611-CB3+ and Deluxe model are excellent products. Distribution even direct from the factory can be really tiresome. If you can get a regular supply at a good price try them.

We house the units in IP65 enclosures with antenna's built on to the box. Currently we also make our own PoE, but the design needs some polishing.

[avara]

william, may I ask where you get them from at the moment? Have you done any distance testing? I have been told that because of the timing in the chip-set used, they will not work beyond 10km. While certainly most installs would be within 10km, there might be a few as far as 10-20km from the nearest access point, so it would be nice to get 20km out of them.

[bobbyc]

What's the deluxe model? All I know of are the CB3+ and the AP3+

[william]

http://www.senao.com.tw/english/product/product_wireless01_outdoor_1.asp?tp1id=02&tp2id=02 &proid=000064 The deluxe model is a bridge that supports AP mode. The price difference is so nominal we use them instead of the CB3+. That way there is the option of using your stock for different applications.

We have Senao client links running in excess of 10Km to Star, Mikrotik and in bridge outside our network. I have been buying direct from Senao in Taiwan, but have experienced many delays. Engenius is the supplier in Canada and the States. http://www.engeniustech.com/

[bobbyc]

Hey guys,
Is there any way to find out what "agere/hermes" firmware is used in the new WET-11 v2? It seems to work great with starOS, but in my experience all firmware versions (8.72, 8.10, etc.) work with starOS.
Bob C

[avara]

Been looking at this as well now:
http://www.deliberant.com/product_info.php?products_id=31
http://www.deliberant.com/datasheets/iwe1150.pdf (tech specs, apparently it has 20dBm output power and -88 receive sensitivity at 11mbps)

[bobbyc]

Stay away from them; I bought a couple and they are flakey and the timing on them sucks. At just 2 miles from the hermes AP (12 mile range) I was getting 450KBps RX but only 150KBps TX. Ping losses too. I locked the client at 5.5 instead of 11 and my ping losses were gone but still 150KBps rate.
Also my xp laptop will report IP address conflict for no reason at times when I have this bridge plugged into it.. and I know I do not have a real conflict.
Anyways at my 2 mile install, I threw this unit back into my truck and pulled out a WET11 v2, and got ~500KBps RX and TX.
I'm sticking with the WET11 v2 and CB3+ for ethernet installs (and star-OS for the businesses that want/need it); and trusty usb hermes clients for the cheapo customers. USB installs require more configuration, but every time a customer gets a new cpu 'and' might want some ICS set-up, we send a tech out and charge for it.
Bob C

[aawire]

This is my first post, but so what right... I 100% (and then some) agree with bobbyc on this. That stuff is JUNK. It is made by ovislink.com. They are CHEAP and bad to deal with! I speak with experince.

Avara, I still dont understand why you can only charge $25 for your service. You will have a premium product with broadband and $25 is what AOL sells dialup for. I go heavy against cable and dsl. They dont stop me! I wonder if you need to take a look at your business model??? If the market is not there, then IT IS NOT THERE and you need to find a new market (demographicly speaking that is). You cant sell enough furnances in the Bahamas to eat dinner with the profits. Profit is what we should be about first. Without profit you wont stay in business long and your customers are screwed in the end. Cheap is as cheap ______. Somebody help me out here...

Star OS is your answer and stop fighting it. "PO"ed customers will KILL your dreams of success my friend!

[avara]

We have 21% sales tax in Ireland, so the customer ends up paying more. Also, broadband prices in Europe are dropping fast, so it does not make sense to start at a higher rate.

Obviously there will be different levels of service, but there will need to be a package for around 25.00 a month. For example 25.00 for 256kbps, 35.00 for 512kbps and 45.00 for 1mbps.

[bobbyc]

More on the interepoch bridge;
I used one on a 1 mile install yesterday (it's just a loaner until my usb shipment comes in) and it is working well. Later in the day, I setup a home wireless network for a customer. I was going to use a interepoch in AP mode, and 2 in client mode. I couldn't get the 2 clients to associate to the AP. I initially had WEP on, and a 14 character SSID.
I then swapped out the AP for a CB3 Deluxe in AP mode. The clients still wouldn't associate. I then turned back off WEP on the AP and clients and they still wouldn't associate. I changed the SSID from 14 to 8 characters and they associated. I then turned WEP back on and they wouldn't associate again. I put the interepoch AP back in place (thinking the SSID was too long and that is why it wouldn't work) and the clients still wouldn't associate to the AP.
I finally ended up using the CB3 Deluxe AP and turned on 'hide SSID' since I couldn't get WEP to work.
I don't have much faith in the clients. If WEP doesn't get fixed in a future release, I will probably swap them out for WET11 v2. One thing for sure is that I am not going to use these things in my WISP network (except for the loaner unit I have working right now.)
Bob C

[bobbyc]

btw,
I am really impressed with the WET11 v2... a totally different beast than the WET11 v1. Yesterday I went to a customer we've had for a couple years now. He wanted to swap out his usb modem for a always on connection (he didn't want to use ICS anymore) so I sold him a WET11 v2 and a draytek 2300 PPTP VPN router. Before the signals reported from the AP (hermes) with the usb (hermes) was -62/-60 and now with the WET11v2 (hermes) they are -57/-56. I'm going to go back out there and give him a smaller antenna tomorrow :)
I wonder if his usb had a bad pigtail or something?
Bob C

[avara]

That is very useful information, since I had heard negative things about the WET11 v2. I may order one for testing on Monday, and see how it compares to the DWL-810.

I guess I am wondering how you power it, do you use the Linksys PoE kit for instance. Do you have many deployed yet, or have you had any chance to do distance testing?

[bobbyc]

This is the first v2 I've put into service. I've been testing it at my house for over a month now. There was a fimrware update towards the beginning of the month that allowed it to associate to a AP with SSID hidden... since then it has worked great.
I am not using POE on this one... there is about 50' of lmr400 between the antenna and WET.
If I had to do poe, I would probably get the dlink kit or equivelent. (the one with the 48v downconverter to 5v), that way I don't have to use the stock power supply and worry about undervoltage.
Bob C

[avara]

Linksys's PoE injector also uses 48 volts, and is compliant with the standard, so it can be used with any PoE device:

http://www.linksys.com/products/product.asp?grid=33&scid=38&prid=582

The lowest price I found on it was $31.00, which is a little bit cheaper than the D-Link (I have two of those deployed, one with almost 300' of cat 5), and it would appear to have the exact same specs. I like to avoid cable runs, and prefer to put the radio directly behind the antenna (better receive sensitivity).

Edit: Also found the DWL-900AP+ for $54.00. Where do you get your WET11's? I was not able to find any for less than around 80 bucks, which is fine, but curious anyway.

[avara]

I ordered a WET11 v2 today, they were out of stock in Ireland though but it should be here in a week or so. I will let you know how the testing goes.

[avara]

The WET11 I ordered arrived here yesterday with overnight shipping, but it turns out to be a v1. I guess I am kind of happy, since the word seems to be that these are superior to the v2, however it is a little odd since where I bought them were out of stock, and they had to order new stock from Linksys.

[Evert]

At least that confirms that Cisco replaced it with a Hermes chipset... I guess Senao might be the way to go. Now to find a good source for Senao kit...

I know you're in Europe so you might try these (www.zx-yagi.nl) for Senao kit.
They're based in the Netherlands but Klaas (the owner) knows his stuff and theír prices are good.
Tell him Evert from www.wireless-kit referred you...

E.

[avara]

Thanks for the tip, I will take a look. By the way, I currently have the WET 11 v1 in the house. It has to go through 2 indoor concrete walls, a very thick (double concrete with insulation in between) wall, and finally some trees/bushes, and yet it can just connect to our AP, which I would guess is about 200 metres away. Only getting 50k/sec in both directions, but it works. Things should improve once we get StarOS on the AP with Demarc cards (should be on Tuesday, right now it's just a 15dbm D-Link DWL-800AP+ hooked up to an 8dbi omni, which is crap).

[Evert]

Are you still working together with the Midwestwan lads?

E.

[avara]

I am not a member of MidWestWan.

Edit: Evert, you wouldn't happen to know whether the owner speaks English or German? Might give 'em a call on Monday, I see the CB3 is on sale there for 109 euros including sales tax.

[bobbyc]

I'm confused, please someone help me understand.
The WET11v2 has agere chipset in it, but is it hermes1 or hermes2? I have a client at 13 miles (hermes1 AP) who has been using a WET11v1 with a orinoco card inside it instead of a bromax prism 2.5 stock card. The client is amped as well as the tower (client shoots thru some trees on his end.) The client has always gotten decent speeds, but if anyone has ever put a orinoco card (hermes1) inside a WET11, it is impossible to control what rate the client is locked at. It will jump between 2 and 11mbps.
So I assumed the WET11v2 has the same hermes1 chipset as the orinoco, and went to the customers place today and swapped out the WET11v1. I did some starutil tx and rx tests with my laptop to the AP.... the WET11v2 would only tx at 6KB/sec. If I dropped the rate of the WET11v2 down to 5.5mbps, it would tx at 100-200KBps.
Anyways I put the WETv1 with orinoco card back into place and tomorrow I'm bringing over a dell small form factor with starOS on it and a orinoco pcmcia card... and I can fine tune the distance to 13. It is already 13 on the AP.
Can anyone confirm if the WET11v2 is a hermes2 chipset and if the hermes2 has different timing beacons as the hermes1?
I know it's not a signal/noise issue... plenty of signal (~61) and not much noise (~89) on each end.
Thanks,
Bob C

[Evert]

I am not a member of MidWestWan.

Edit: Evert, you wouldn't happen to know whether the owner speaks English or German? Might give 'em a call on Monday, I see the CB3 is on sale there for 109 euros including sales tax.

I would say he does but i'm not sure...
Did you call him yet?

E.

[bobbyc]

Well I've seen it mentioned on other websites (nothing official) that the v2 is hermes2 chipset. Has anyone else seen for themselves or heard that the timing on the hermes1 and hermes2 are different?
Thanks,
Bob C

[bobbyc]

Just a FYI, Linksys has a new firmware out for the WET11v2 that includes a radio driver update.
Haven't updated any of mine yet (we have about 30 WET11 v2 deployed with no problems whatsoever, only 1 was DOA out of the box), but this thread is encouraging.
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9721864~mode=flat
Bob C

[bobbyc]

Well just an update on the WET11v2; either the latest firmware increased the ack timeout, or when I initially tested the 13 mile link there was noise.
I now have a customer at 13 miles using a wet11v2/amp/24dB/70' tower combo and he's getting ~350KBps each way.
Bob C